Fuel economy and hybrids
in [Aussie Motorcycles]
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From: theo on 5 Mar 2010 18:58 On Mar 5, 7:46 pm, Moike <bmwmo...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > theo wrote: > > On another angle of alleged low-emission vehicles there was a snippet > > on the news this morning saying that if every household in Oz had a > > main-charged electric vehicle, we would need to double the number of > > coal-fired power stations in the country. Another item said that the > > two new proposed power stations for NSW would emit greenhouse gases > > equal to the current NSW vehicle fleet. > > > Do we really want coal-powered electric cars? > There was a nice bit on RN last week about a proposal to use electric > cars as a distributed storage system to even out variations in green > power supply. Vehicles with big batteries (35KWh was mentioned) that can > dump power back into the grid on demand. differential rates make it an > earner for the car owner, and on-board management systems could allow > the owner to ensure the car always has enough charge when required. > > Distributed storage would put lower stresses on the grid and allow > generation to occur at closer to optimal rates. > > transript:http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2010/2831527.htm#transcript I wonder how much you lose on the transfer in charging the vehicle and then feeding it back to the grid though. I would think probably in the order of 20% or more. This loss is literaly going up in smoke. I try to mange my home power as best I can. My meter reads power used by time of day/rate and power fed back into the grid by my solar cells. I read it daily. OK, I'm retired and need to fill in my time. My currrent daily usage is around 20-24Kwh per day, with close ot 45% at off-peak rates and less than 10% at peak rates (the solar panels mostly generate power at peak rates). My power costs for February was $3.47 per day. An electric car would likely double that usage. Just how much does an electric car use per km? At what speed. For me, an electric vehicle would need to be able to travel 100+ kms between charges with half of the distance at highway speeds. To drive my ute 100 kms costs $11.40, and burns no coal. Theo Theo
From: Nev.. on 7 Mar 2010 23:54 theo wrote: > On Mar 5, 7:46 pm, Moike <bmwmo...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> theo wrote: > >>> On another angle of alleged low-emission vehicles there was a snippet >>> on the news this morning saying that if every household in Oz had a >>> main-charged electric vehicle, we would need to double the number of >>> coal-fired power stations in the country. Another item said that the >>> two new proposed power stations for NSW would emit greenhouse gases >>> equal to the current NSW vehicle fleet. >>> Do we really want coal-powered electric cars? > >> There was a nice bit on RN last week about a proposal to use electric >> cars as a distributed storage system to even out variations in green >> power supply. Vehicles with big batteries (35KWh was mentioned) that can >> dump power back into the grid on demand. differential rates make it an >> earner for the car owner, and on-board management systems could allow >> the owner to ensure the car always has enough charge when required. >> >> Distributed storage would put lower stresses on the grid and allow >> generation to occur at closer to optimal rates. >> >> transript:http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2010/2831527.htm#transcript > > I wonder how much you lose on the transfer in charging the vehicle and > then feeding it back to the grid though. I would think probably in the > order of 20% or more. This loss is literaly going up in smoke. > > I try to mange my home power as best I can. My meter reads power used > by time of day/rate and power fed back into the grid by my solar > cells. I read it daily. OK, I'm retired and need to fill in my time. > My currrent daily usage is around 20-24Kwh per day, with close ot 45% > at off-peak rates and less than 10% at peak rates (the solar panels > mostly generate power at peak rates). My power costs for February was > $3.47 per day. An electric car would likely double that usage. Just > how much does an electric car use per km? At what speed. For me, an > electric vehicle would need to be able to travel 100+ kms between > charges with half of the distance at highway speeds. To drive my ute > 100 kms costs $11.40, and burns no coal. Coal/oil? I think the search for renewable alternative fuels treats coal or oil similarly, that is, I don't think that you need feel good about anything because your car burns no coal. In fact, I think coal is preferable power source to oil because production of power from coal in a power station is much more efficient and less polluting than that from oil-based fuels in a car engine. It's the only reason why electric cars can make environmental sense in the present time. Nev.. '08 DL1000K8
From: theo on 8 Mar 2010 00:52 On Mar 8, 12:54 pm, "Nev.." <id...(a)mindless.com> wrote: > theo wrote: > > I wonder how much you lose on the transfer in charging the vehicle and > > then feeding it back to the grid though. I would think probably in the > > order of 20% or more. This loss is literaly going up in smoke. > > > I try to mange my home power as best I can. My meter reads power used > > by time of day/rate and power fed back into the grid by my solar > > cells. I read it daily. OK, I'm retired and need to fill in my time. > > My currrent daily usage is around 20-24Kwh per day, with close ot 45% > > at off-peak rates and less than 10% at peak rates (the solar panels > > mostly generate power at peak rates). My power costs for February was > > $3.47 per day. An electric car would likely double that usage. Just > > how much does an electric car use per km? At what speed. For me, an > > electric vehicle would need to be able to travel 100+ kms between > > charges with half of the distance at highway speeds. To drive my ute > > 100 kms costs $11.40, and burns no coal. > > Coal/oil? I think the search for renewable alternative fuels treats > coal or oil similarly, that is, I don't think that you need feel good > about anything because your car burns no coal. In fact, I think coal is > preferable power source to oil because production of power from coal in > a power station is much more efficient and less polluting than that from > oil-based fuels in a car engine. It's the only reason why electric cars > can make environmental sense in the present time. How about this then http://www.mrsharkey.com/charging2.htm While studies of the pollution-reducing ability of electric vehicles in California are quite favorable, they cannot be applied to the rest of the world as a whole. The truth is that when using electricity generated from dirty sources such as coal and oil, electric vehicles may actually create more of some pollutants than comparable internal combustion engine vehicles. A report by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) cited a German study that estimated the environmental impact of electric vehicles with two distinct energy mixes: one comprised of only 49% coal-fired electricity, and one comprised solely of coal-fired electricity [1]. The estimates provided by the study are given in table 1. Assuming that 49% of an electric vehicle's charging energy being derived from coal, the study found that electric vehicles would cause comparable levels of nitrogen oxides and carbon dioxide to be emitted, and that sulfur oxide emissions would increase by a factor of 10 [1]. Furthermore, when assuming that an electric vehicle is charged with 100% coal-fired electricity, the study estimated that the electric vehicles would emit 150% more carbon dioxide, 250% more nitrogen oxides, and 2400% more sulfur oxides than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle [1]. [1] Electric Vehicles: Likely Consequences of U.S. and Other Nations' programs and Policies. (1994). In Gateway Japan. [20 November 1995]. I think Oz grid electricity production is around 80% coal. Theo
From: G-S on 8 Mar 2010 02:21 theo wrote: > On Mar 8, 12:54 pm, "Nev.." <id...(a)mindless.com> wrote: >> theo wrote: > >>> I wonder how much you lose on the transfer in charging the vehicle and >>> then feeding it back to the grid though. I would think probably in the >>> order of 20% or more. This loss is literaly going up in smoke. >>> I try to mange my home power as best I can. My meter reads power used >>> by time of day/rate and power fed back into the grid by my solar >>> cells. I read it daily. OK, I'm retired and need to fill in my time. >>> My currrent daily usage is around 20-24Kwh per day, with close ot 45% >>> at off-peak rates and less than 10% at peak rates (the solar panels >>> mostly generate power at peak rates). My power costs for February was >>> $3.47 per day. An electric car would likely double that usage. Just >>> how much does an electric car use per km? At what speed. For me, an >>> electric vehicle would need to be able to travel 100+ kms between >>> charges with half of the distance at highway speeds. To drive my ute >>> 100 kms costs $11.40, and burns no coal. >> Coal/oil? I think the search for renewable alternative fuels treats >> coal or oil similarly, that is, I don't think that you need feel good >> about anything because your car burns no coal. In fact, I think coal is >> preferable power source to oil because production of power from coal in >> a power station is much more efficient and less polluting than that from >> oil-based fuels in a car engine. It's the only reason why electric cars >> can make environmental sense in the present time. > > How about this then > > http://www.mrsharkey.com/charging2.htm > > While studies of the pollution-reducing ability of electric vehicles > in California are quite favorable, they cannot be applied to the rest > of the world as a whole. The truth is that when using electricity > generated from dirty sources such as coal and oil, electric vehicles > may actually create more of some pollutants than comparable internal > combustion engine vehicles. A report by the U.S. General Accounting > Office (GAO) cited a German study that estimated the environmental > impact of electric vehicles with two distinct energy mixes: one > comprised of only 49% coal-fired electricity, and one comprised solely > of coal-fired electricity [1]. The estimates provided by the study are > given in table 1. Assuming that 49% of an electric vehicle's charging > energy being derived from coal, the study found that electric vehicles > would cause comparable levels of nitrogen oxides and carbon dioxide to > be emitted, and that sulfur oxide emissions would increase by a factor > of 10 [1]. Furthermore, when assuming that an electric vehicle is > charged with 100% coal-fired electricity, the study estimated that the > electric vehicles would emit 150% more carbon dioxide, 250% more > nitrogen oxides, and 2400% more sulfur oxides than a comparable > internal combustion engine vehicle [1]. > [1] Electric Vehicles: Likely Consequences of U.S. and Other Nations' > programs and Policies. (1994). In Gateway Japan. [20 November 1995]. > > I think Oz grid electricity production is around 80% coal. > > Theo Lots of Australian electricity production uses brown coal and not black coal and that creates more pollution again. G-S
From: theo on 8 Mar 2010 02:37
On Mar 8, 3:21 pm, G-S <ge...(a)castbus.com.au> wrote: > theo wrote: > > How about this then > > >http://www.mrsharkey.com/charging2.htm > > > While studies of the pollution-reducing ability of electric vehicles > > in California are quite favorable, they cannot be applied to the rest > > of the world as a whole. The truth is that when using electricity > > generated from dirty sources such as coal and oil, electric vehicles > > may actually create more of some pollutants than comparable internal > > combustion engine vehicles. A report by the U.S. General Accounting > > Office (GAO) cited a German study that estimated the environmental > > impact of electric vehicles with two distinct energy mixes: one > > comprised of only 49% coal-fired electricity, and one comprised solely > > of coal-fired electricity [1]. The estimates provided by the study are > > given in table 1. Assuming that 49% of an electric vehicle's charging > > energy being derived from coal, the study found that electric vehicles > > would cause comparable levels of nitrogen oxides and carbon dioxide to > > be emitted, and that sulfur oxide emissions would increase by a factor > > of 10 [1]. Furthermore, when assuming that an electric vehicle is > > charged with 100% coal-fired electricity, the study estimated that the > > electric vehicles would emit 150% more carbon dioxide, 250% more > > nitrogen oxides, and 2400% more sulfur oxides than a comparable > > internal combustion engine vehicle [1]. > > [1] Electric Vehicles: Likely Consequences of U.S. and Other Nations' > > programs and Policies. (1994). In Gateway Japan. [20 November 1995]. > > > I think Oz grid electricity production is around 80% coal. > > > Theo > > Lots of Australian electricity production uses brown coal and not black > coal and that creates more pollution again. Brown coal is like burning damp cow-pats. It may even be damp cow- pats. Theo |