From: JL on 23 Mar 2010 20:13
On Mar 24, 7:37 am, Kevin Gleeson <kevinglee...(a)imagine-it.com.au>
> One day people will judge people one what they do, not what they wear.
> Yeah right.
What you wear is very informative about you as a person, and
deliberately being non conformist to a dress code (not wearing a suit
for an office job interview for example or wearing a suit to an
interview as a creative in the advertising industry) sends a clear
signal about your mental attitude and approach. Why would anyone hire
someone who loudly proclaims "I'm a subversive, I've no interested in
fitting in to your organisation's culture, if I don't like your rules,
I'll ignore them"
It is extraordinarily unusual for a role to be utterly stand alone,
generally you have to work as part of a team, and your approach to
team is clearly signalled by your willingness to be part of the
culture. An academic article published in the Harvard Business Review
concluded pretty forcefully that the person who is a "genius but an
arsehole who can't get along with others" (more nicely worded in the
article) is a net liability - it's genuinely not worth having them on
the team for the damage it does to the team.
It's extraordinarily juvenile to whine about "not judging people by
what they wear" when it is human nature to do exactly that - we gather
a huge amount of information visually, how you process that
information is the critical part.
Concluding things about people from what they wear has to be
approached carefully - some conclusions are supportable, some aren't.
It's reasonable to assume that someone turning up for an interview in
inappropriate clothing either a) doesn't understand what is
appropriate or b) doesn't care or c) isn't able to comply
Those three options lead to very different conclusions and actions.
FWIW I've hired 60 people in the last 12months alone (probably a 500
or more in the last decade and a bit) with a good track record of
success and physical appearance and presentation is only one of many
clues as to someone's capability, don't forget though that capability
has to be coupled with desire to work and desire to do a good job. And
appearance is a clue as to their attention to detail.
All of which is not to suggest Betty should have been discriminated
against, but the other poster who suggested that there would be an
assumption that that was how she would turn up everyday is utterly
correct- I have no idea whether that is or isn't a problem as I have
no idea what she wore and whether it's inappropriate
From: bikerbetty on 23 Mar 2010 20:34
On Mar 24, 9:24 am, VTR250 <goo...(a)m-streeter.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Several people have said something close to this but I say it a
> different way. Psychologists have come up with something called
> "Fundamental attribution error" which means, for the purposes of
> attending an interview, that anything you do or say IN AN INTERVIEW
> situation will be interpreted as your normal behaviour.
> Practically speaking, you should DRESS the way you want them to think
> you will dress every day when you turn up to work (there will be
> exceptions to the general rule).
That's just it though - I would be turning up to work every day in my
bike gear over the top of work gear. Stashed in the staffroom,
however, would be "classroom" shoes and jacket. That's just common
>In your case, I think the correct thing to do would be
>to put the ironed, folded blouse, polised shoes etc. in your carry
>pack and wear what you can. Arrive 20 minutes earlier, and change
>nearby (they will show you out, possibly off site).
I take your point though. Perhaps I should've prepared them beforehand
so that they knew I would be turning up on a bike. They knew I'd be
taking time out of my public servant day to go out there for the
interview, though - could've been a bit unreasonable to expect that I
would take a an extra 20 mins or so to get all gussied up in such a
situation (and gussied down/geared up again afterwards).
Here's an irony - the previous Head rode a motorbike - and rode it to
Meh, I'm over it. Now I just need to find a job that will get me away
from the horrid one I currently have!
From: Zebee Johnstone on 23 Mar 2010 20:36
In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:13:06 -0700 (PDT)
JL <jlittler(a)my-deja.com> wrote:
> It is extraordinarily unusual for a role to be utterly stand alone,
> generally you have to work as part of a team, and your approach to
> team is clearly signalled by your willingness to be part of the
> culture. An academic article published in the Harvard Business Review
And if you don't know the culture, you have to assume it's the
"standard" culture for the kind of company. Standard interview
culture that is...
THe interviews I've had I always figure that for the kind of job I do
"dressy casual" is the right dress code. If I have a source inside I
can find out what suitable wear is. I was warned not to dress up for
a couple of jobs.
I expect even sysadmins to turn up reasonably well dressed for the
interview, even if the job is less fancy than that. If only because
it shows they know that such things are sometimes needful and they can
present corporately if needed.
On the other hand, anywhere who expected a female sysadmin to turn up
in heels and skirt is not a place I'd work in. Totally wrong end of
stick. Even if it was a customer facing role, trousers and flat shoes
are the proper data centre clothing.
From: Zebee Johnstone on 23 Mar 2010 21:11
In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
bikerbetty <bikerbetty(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I take your point though. Perhaps I should've prepared them beforehand
> so that they knew I would be turning up on a bike. They knew I'd be
> taking time out of my public servant day to go out there for the
> interview, though - could've been a bit unreasonable to expect that I
> would take a an extra 20 mins or so to get all gussied up in such a
> situation (and gussied down/geared up again afterwards).
Warning them can work, but wearing as much as possible of your good
gear and changing into the rest seems to work better.
I've forgone the boots and worn good (flat) shoes, carried a folded
jacket in a backpack and put the bike jacket in the backpack when I
got to where I was going.
Give it a try, see how much good gear you can wear and how much time
changing takes. If you can practice it a bit you might find it works
well enough for you.
It does sound like it wouldn't have helped in this situation though.
From: VTR250 on 23 Mar 2010 21:57
On Mar 24, 11:34 am, bikerbetty <bikerbe...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 9:24 am, VTR250 <goo...(a)m-streeter.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Practically speaking, you should DRESS the way you want them to think
> > you will dress every day when you turn up to work (there will be
> > exceptions to the general rule).
> That's just it though - I would be turning up to work every day in my
> bike gear over the top of work gear. Stashed in the staffroom,
> however, would be "classroom" shoes and jacket. That's just common
I know you'd be turning up in bike gear every day - BUT this is a job
interview not a normal day at the office.
I might cycle to work, but I wouldn't go to a job interview in
anything except a suit and tie - certainly not Lycra ;-)
You might have just made your own luck there, BB
> Meh, I'm over it. Now I just need to find a job that will get me away
> from the horrid one I currently have!