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From: JL on 23 Mar 2010 20:13 On Mar 24, 7:37 am, Kevin Gleeson <kevinglee...(a)imagine-it.com.au> wrote: > One day people will judge people one what they do, not what they wear. > Yeah right. What you wear is very informative about you as a person, and deliberately being non conformist to a dress code (not wearing a suit for an office job interview for example or wearing a suit to an interview as a creative in the advertising industry) sends a clear signal about your mental attitude and approach. Why would anyone hire someone who loudly proclaims "I'm a subversive, I've no interested in fitting in to your organisation's culture, if I don't like your rules, I'll ignore them" It is extraordinarily unusual for a role to be utterly stand alone, generally you have to work as part of a team, and your approach to team is clearly signalled by your willingness to be part of the culture. An academic article published in the Harvard Business Review concluded pretty forcefully that the person who is a "genius but an arsehole who can't get along with others" (more nicely worded in the article) is a net liability - it's genuinely not worth having them on the team for the damage it does to the team. It's extraordinarily juvenile to whine about "not judging people by what they wear" when it is human nature to do exactly that - we gather a huge amount of information visually, how you process that information is the critical part. Concluding things about people from what they wear has to be approached carefully - some conclusions are supportable, some aren't. It's reasonable to assume that someone turning up for an interview in inappropriate clothing either a) doesn't understand what is appropriate or b) doesn't care or c) isn't able to comply Those three options lead to very different conclusions and actions. FWIW I've hired 60 people in the last 12months alone (probably a 500 or more in the last decade and a bit) with a good track record of success and physical appearance and presentation is only one of many clues as to someone's capability, don't forget though that capability has to be coupled with desire to work and desire to do a good job. And appearance is a clue as to their attention to detail. JL All of which is not to suggest Betty should have been discriminated against, but the other poster who suggested that there would be an assumption that that was how she would turn up everyday is utterly correct- I have no idea whether that is or isn't a problem as I have no idea what she wore and whether it's inappropriate
From: bikerbetty on 23 Mar 2010 20:34 On Mar 24, 9:24 am, VTR250 <goo...(a)m-streeter.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > Several people have said something close to this but I say it a > different way. Psychologists have come up with something called > "Fundamental attribution error" which means, for the purposes of > attending an interview, that anything you do or say IN AN INTERVIEW > situation will be interpreted as your normal behaviour. <snip> > Practically speaking, you should DRESS the way you want them to think > you will dress every day when you turn up to work (there will be > exceptions to the general rule). That's just it though - I would be turning up to work every day in my bike gear over the top of work gear. Stashed in the staffroom, however, would be "classroom" shoes and jacket. That's just common sense. >In your case, I think the correct thing to do would be >to put the ironed, folded blouse, polised shoes etc. in your carry >pack and wear what you can. Arrive 20 minutes earlier, and change >nearby (they will show you out, possibly off site). I take your point though. Perhaps I should've prepared them beforehand so that they knew I would be turning up on a bike. They knew I'd be taking time out of my public servant day to go out there for the interview, though - could've been a bit unreasonable to expect that I would take a an extra 20 mins or so to get all gussied up in such a situation (and gussied down/geared up again afterwards). Here's an irony - the previous Head rode a motorbike - and rode it to school... Meh, I'm over it. Now I just need to find a job that will get me away from the horrid one I currently have! betty
From: Zebee Johnstone on 23 Mar 2010 20:36 In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:13:06 -0700 (PDT) JL <jlittler(a)my-deja.com> wrote: > > It is extraordinarily unusual for a role to be utterly stand alone, > generally you have to work as part of a team, and your approach to > team is clearly signalled by your willingness to be part of the > culture. An academic article published in the Harvard Business Review Definitely. And if you don't know the culture, you have to assume it's the "standard" culture for the kind of company. Standard interview culture that is... THe interviews I've had I always figure that for the kind of job I do "dressy casual" is the right dress code. If I have a source inside I can find out what suitable wear is. I was warned not to dress up for a couple of jobs. I expect even sysadmins to turn up reasonably well dressed for the interview, even if the job is less fancy than that. If only because it shows they know that such things are sometimes needful and they can present corporately if needed. On the other hand, anywhere who expected a female sysadmin to turn up in heels and skirt is not a place I'd work in. Totally wrong end of stick. Even if it was a customer facing role, trousers and flat shoes are the proper data centre clothing. Zebee
From: Zebee Johnstone on 23 Mar 2010 21:11 In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT) bikerbetty <bikerbetty(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I take your point though. Perhaps I should've prepared them beforehand > so that they knew I would be turning up on a bike. They knew I'd be > taking time out of my public servant day to go out there for the > interview, though - could've been a bit unreasonable to expect that I > would take a an extra 20 mins or so to get all gussied up in such a > situation (and gussied down/geared up again afterwards). Warning them can work, but wearing as much as possible of your good gear and changing into the rest seems to work better. I've forgone the boots and worn good (flat) shoes, carried a folded jacket in a backpack and put the bike jacket in the backpack when I got to where I was going. Give it a try, see how much good gear you can wear and how much time changing takes. If you can practice it a bit you might find it works well enough for you. It does sound like it wouldn't have helped in this situation though. Zebee
From: VTR250 on 23 Mar 2010 21:57
On Mar 24, 11:34 am, bikerbetty <bikerbe...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 24, 9:24 am, VTR250 <goo...(a)m-streeter.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > <snip> > > > Practically speaking, you should DRESS the way you want them to think > > you will dress every day when you turn up to work (there will be > > exceptions to the general rule). > > That's just it though - I would be turning up to work every day in my > bike gear over the top of work gear. Stashed in the staffroom, > however, would be "classroom" shoes and jacket. That's just common > sense. > I know you'd be turning up in bike gear every day - BUT this is a job interview not a normal day at the office. I might cycle to work, but I wouldn't go to a job interview in anything except a suit and tie - certainly not Lycra ;-) You might have just made your own luck there, BB > <snip> > Meh, I'm over it. Now I just need to find a job that will get me away > from the horrid one I currently have! > > betty |