One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
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From: Mark N on 30 Oct 2007 01:52 pablo wrote: > "Carl Sundquist" strives to mislead: >> So based on everything you've said on the subject, the most "talented" >> riders are "of a relatively narrow band of size". > > This after Pedrosa's "unfair size advantage" has been utterly irrelevant > this season. And you know this, how? How can you be certain that his size didn't serve him well this season? And how much did Hayden's season get impacted by having to ride a bike designed for a guy 3/4ers his size? I certainly wouldn't say Pedrosa's size is irrelevant to Hayden... And if Stoner is borderline midget, heck, I have seen him > enthusiastically sliding *both* tires on more than one occasion this season, > something I can't even recall Roberts or Maomola doing. Guy can ride, > period. Sure he got very good material, but he made very good use of it, > which many before him haven't done even when they had a similar advantage. > And the guy's young. It is amazing, and can not be attributed to size. And > if we're not talking Stoner, I wonder why we are talking size at all. I'm talking about it because the size of the MotoGP grid is plummeting like a stone. Next year's grid will average 136 pounds, this year's champion is almost certainly the lightest ever, the size of the average race winner in 2004 was 148 pounds, in 2005 it was 145 pound, in 2006 it was 138 pounds and so far this year 133 pounds. And the average weight of a race winner in 250 this year has been 120 pounds, the guys destined for MotoGP. And when was the last time a guy of even 130 pounds won a 250 race? De Puniet in Germany in mid-2005. How about 140 pounds? Rolfo in early 2004? How about 150 pounds? Uhh... Chili in 1992? > The thing is, back in the day, when Roberts and then Mamola came over, they > were even smaller than friggin' Angel Nieto, who was winning 50cc titles. This from the guy who claimed Roberts was Pedrosa's size when he raced in 500... I > can't remember Hartog or some other, singginficantly bigger guys, > complaining about unfair advantages, nor did the European public, which just > enjoyed the show, as they continue to do irrespective of the nationality of > the eventual champion. Too bad that's changed so much... > MotoGP has never been kind to bigger guys. > > Size alone will never make the difference. Now I'm sure there's a contradiction in there somewhere... > The issue this year was tires, and perhaps bike - not rider size. No question bike and tires were huge, but you can't really say that size had absolutely no impact on Stoner's results, that he would have done exactly the same thing if he weighed 25 pounds more. Well, YOU certainly can, but... > Until someone of Pedrosa's or Lorenzo's built sweeps the next 4 > championships, somebody please give us a friggin' break with this idiotic > topic. The only idiot is you. At the rate things are going the average race winner will be 125 pounds in only another couple years. What may end up being hilarious is if Dorna really replaces 250 with this 600-based class in 2010, and many of the top guys in MotoGP then are too small and weak to win in the support class!
From: Julian Bond on 30 Oct 2007 03:58 Howard Kveck <YOURhoward(a)h-SHOESbomb.com> Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:44:02 > So how many times must we go through the rationale for riders being >hired, Mark? >Flog that dead horse! This gets so circular. Eventually it boils down to:- - The Europeans have built a development path for riders up to MotoGP that starts on 125s at a very early age. - The Americans haven't. - The Europeans are in the same paddock, riding the same circuits, learning machine setup, eating with the same sponsors. - The Americans aren't. - The best of the Europeans end up in MotoGP - It's not fair. -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat *** Just Say No To DRM ***
From: Mark N on 30 Oct 2007 10:26
Julian Bond wrote: > This gets so circular. Eventually it boils down to:- > - The Europeans have built a development path for riders up to MotoGP > that starts on 125s at a very early age. > - The Americans haven't. > - The Europeans are in the same paddock, riding the same circuits, > learning machine setup, eating with the same sponsors. > - The Americans aren't. > - The best of the Europeans end up in MotoGP > - It's not fair. No, what it boils down to is this: 1) The FIM gets overthrown and Dorna and the other financial players in GP take over, and the focus in GP becomes all about making money and marketing interests. 2) Since the core audience for GP and the big players in the sport are focused in southern Europe and Japan, the focus becomes putting riders from this world into the seats in the premier class, in lieu of having most of the top riders sourced from outside of this world and outside of this series. Dorna designates 125 a development class and a series of "mediocre 250 riders" (KR's words) are promoted into 500. 3) WSB becomes the avenue for riders elsewhere in the world, although it still is open to riders from the GP world as well, and the series ends up dominated by Australian, American and British riders. As the series has the machines more applicable to the marketing of their product, the bike bike manufacturers interest slowly shifts toward WSB and away from GP. In GP the new 250 promos fail to win championships. 4) Dorna recognizes their world is shrinking and their prospects are limited, so they decide to switch the premier class four strokes. The Japanese factories are frustrated with FGSport's Italian favoritism and general bumbling, so they go along with this. Kawasaki and Ducati move into MotoGP, and a series of SB riders come along as well. WSB retreats to its European roots. 5) Dorna wants representatives on the track from various countries with races in the series, so they support placement of tokens on struggling lease teams, but the commercial interest of GP remains where it was earlier, and that continues to impose its will. 6) The 125/250 designated promotional path has become institutionalized, but with it comes the requirement of those classes that riders be very small to succeed. Having pushed back the WSB threat, the series slips back to business as usual, and the flow of riders resumes from 250. GP stands supreme, it serves its commercial interests, it develops its own stars internally, it focuses on its core markets. 7) The consequences are riders sized more appropriate for 125s, ever-fewer non-factory teams that struggle for sponsorship and make rider compromises to bring in money, a support class structure that is highly problematic, and the visibility of Dorna's manipulations to enhance financial returns (ie, Rossi must get what he wants, and Pedrosa if Honda will allow it). The drive to be THE TRUE World Championship remains in an eternal standoff against the selfish desires of a very small part of that world that is at GP's core. |