One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
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From: Julian Bond on 7 Oct 2007 03:50 sturd <mikesturdevant127(a)hotmail.com> Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:29:03 >Sofuoglu, Charpentier, Kallio, Spies, Dovisioso, Lorenzo. RL Hayden, >Pitt, Rea. Those are the first ones that come to mind without >really studying the issue. I'm sure there are others hiding in >National series for instance that I'm unaware of. Guys that >follow the Hopkins model and need somebody to take a big >honking chance on them. But that's not going to happen this >year - deserving a ride and having a ride available are two >different things. - Sofuoglu Will get his chance, but he's got to do Superbike first - Charpentier has not looked like a winner for a while now. And he's getting old - Kallio. Hmmm. Perhaps. - Spies, Yes. Go and race at world level as soon as possible. - Dovizioso. I'm not sure he quite has the killer instinct of the others but he's so far ahead of any other Honda rider that there's something there. He looks to be close to Dani P's ability. - Lorenzo Looks to be at least as good as the other 250 champion graduates in MotoGP were at the same stage. - RL Hayden. If there's a place, give him a shot. Or at least more wild cards and testing. - Pitt. He was just showing his potential when he got knifed in the back. Then he tries a no hope team. Like RLH, wildcards, testing, and a ride if there's room. - Chaz Davies. Wild cards, testing, a ride if there's room. - Rea. Not yet. He should have got a World Supers ride next year. - Kiyonari. Go and win or come second in World Supers. Then let's talk. - The Bostroms. Lovely guys, but. Ben was good once, but he hasn't shown if for years and he's not getting younger. Same goes for Eric. - Haslam. Get to World Supers. You're not going anywhere in BSB. But you're not good enough to race in MotoGP and you've already had your one shot. Like Hodgson you really have to prove it the second time around. And you're not doing that. - Checa, Barros Go home. We're bored of you. - Haga, Bayliss, Corser, Biaggi, Mladin, Lavilla, Hodgson. Sorry guys but you got your one shot and it didn't work out. It may not have even been your fault, but you're all getting old. We'd rather have new blood. - Sykes, Crutchlow, Camier, Hill. Get into WSB or WSS as soon as possible. Keep moving up. - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB now? I don't know. - I can't see any other 250 riders that should move up. Bautista has to win the championship first. Barbera is an idiot. Aoyama (Hiroshi) looks to be very close to Kallio but is perhaps too nice. Both of them are a bit stuck because the KTM doesn't quite give them enough to show what they're capable of. I really hope Airwaves Ducati move to WSB and another team takes on the Ducati factory role in the UK. And I hope MV find a way of racing WSB. There is a problem here with old racers who are still fast on the way down blocking the younger racers on the way up. There's only so many good rides in the lower championships. It will be a shame if WSB is so full of ex-MotoGP riders that there's no room for new riders to make an impression as second rider in a top team. -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat *** Just Say No To DRM ***
From: sturd on 7 Oct 2007 10:54 Julian Bond lists: > - Charpentier has not looked like a winner for a while now. And he's > getting old He's been hurt but you're right, he's getting old. > - The Bostroms. Lovely guys, but. Ben was good once, but he hasn't shown > if for years and he's not getting younger. Same goes for Eric. Both nice guys but Ben especially needs to find another profession and give some kids a chance. > - Checa, Barros Go home. We're bored of you. I'd add Tamada. > - Sykes, Crutchlow, Camier, Hill. Get into WSB or WSS as soon as > possible. Keep moving up. These BSB guys? > - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB > now? I don't know. Maybe, not immediately though. Herrin is getting there. Hayes but he's getting old. Why he doesn't have an AMA superbike ride is beyond me. I would have said Danny Eslick a year ago but he's done nothing to prove himself ready. There's a couple flat trackers, Mees being one, that I'd like to see on a superbike but don't expect it to happen. There's a few AMA riders that should go home. Besides BBostrom there's T Hayden and the punk (DiSalvo). > There is a problem here with old racers who are still fast on the way > down blocking the younger racers on the way up. Isn't that the way it's always been? At least since the money got really good - good enough even top 10 guys are looking at never working for a living after retiring from racing. Go fast. Take chances. Mike S.
From: Mark N on 7 Oct 2007 12:29 Julian Bond wrote: > - Sofuoglu Will get his chance, but he's got to do Superbike first Who's to say? We haven't seen him do SBs yet, so no one knows what he might do. Lots of guys have gotten stuck there for good in the past. And there's no more Turkish GP to incentivise Dorne to use their "influence"... > - Kallio. Hmmm. Perhaps. Being Finish doesn't help, nor does being almost 25. It's tough to move up from 250 when there are 2 or 3 EuroMeds doing the same thing every year. > - Spies, Yes. Go and race at world level as soon as possible. And what's possible? He gets one test this year, but doesn't look like racing or testing at Valencia. Definitely back in the AMA next year, and who knows what sort of testing or wildcards he'd get then. And then he may be dependent on Suzuki going to three bikes, unless he jumps to another factory, and what are the chances that any of the others will want a 160-pound American? Kawasaki already has theirs, Ducati has Melandri and Stoner, Yamaha is putting their remaining eggs in the Lorenzo basket and have Toseland filling the Spies mold, and Honda has Nicky and the seven dwarves (five?). Lease teams aren't the answer, and they are totally ingrown in their viewpoint and they only hire EuroMeds unless Dorna steps in. Which leave Roberts... > - Dovizioso. I'm not sure he quite has the killer instinct of the others > but he's so far ahead of any other Honda rider that there's something > there. He looks to be close to Dani P's ability. What if the other Honda riders just suck? What if their bikes suck? We've seen heir apparents propped up before. What he's mostly close to about Pedrosa is size... > - Lorenzo Looks to be at least as good as the other 250 champion > graduates in MotoGP were at the same stage. He's 20 years old, for God's sake, if the rules were as I'd like to see he wouldn't even be eligible for next year. Well, maybe, depending on where you set the age cutoff date. What he is is a guy on a factory Aprilia in a class that you'd suggest takes a factory Aprilia to win, and who else is on one? De Angelis and Bautista and Barbera, guys about whom you've expressed serious reservations? > - RL Hayden. If there's a place, give him a shot. Or at least more wild > cards and testing. At best I think we'll see the same thing as at Laguna this year. And one of the problems with the Indy thing is that anyone coming from the AMA will be down on track experience compared to guys in 125/250 in a couple years, which is a unique situation, yes? > - Pitt. He was just showing his potential when he got knifed in the > back. Then he tries a no hope team. Like RLH, wildcards, testing, and a > ride if there's room. Pitt will be 32 years old at the start of next season, and what's he really done since winning the WSS championship years ago? I think he's one of those guys who's on the list just because he's been knocking around at the world level for so long. Which is in large part because he's Australian and has no choice but to knock around... > - Chaz Davies. Wild cards, testing, a ride if there's room. Or maybe he needs to do SB first? Why does he jump ahead of others, just because he's ridden 250s in GP? Because he's British? > - Rea. Not yet. He should have got a World Supers ride next year. You get what you can get... > - Kiyonari. Go and win or come second in World Supers. Then let's talk. My guess is that we won't. In the end the only thing is what HRC thinks of him, because they brought him in to replace Katoh, they sent him to BSB to ride their, and they are moving him to Ten Kate next year. If they want him in GP, he'll get a seat, if they don't, he won't. > - The Bostroms. Lovely guys, but. Ben was good once, but he hasn't shown > if for years and he's not getting younger. Same goes for Eric. A pretty harsh assessment, I think. Ben, he's not been properly motivated and is getting older, so I hardly nominate him for MotoGP. But he did ride pretty hard in SStock this year and finished 2nd to Spies in what was a Suzuki-dominated class, and he rode hard on the Ducati team last year in SB, a bike you claim was seriously disadvantaged under the AMA rules. Eric has been in poor circumstances as well, first on the Ducati that just didn't suit him (and still won four races and beat Hodgson), then had to step down to the support classes for a year, then the Yamaha SB startup operation. Before all that he was pretty clearly in the top three SB riders in the AMA, and probably is today. He's 30 years old now, which means he's not too old to make a move yet. But it'll never happen, not to MotoGP. > - Checa, Barros Go home. We're bored of you. Checa in WSB is intriguing, and I'm glad to see it happen. Barros will hang around as long as he has to to secure his financial future, after that Altadis business. > - Haga, Bayliss, Corser, Biaggi, Mladin, Lavilla, Hodgson. Sorry guys > but you got your one shot and it didn't work out. It may not have even > been your fault, but you're all getting old. We'd rather have new blood. Generally, yes. But I wouldn't mind seeing Max back in MotoGP, and if it meant some 20-ywear-old EuroMed had to stay in 250 a year longer, too bad. The rest, it's just too late, but there is a cautionary tale to be told and not forgotten about the way that GP politics treated some of them, just because they happened to be born in the wrong place. > - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB > now? I don't know. Tommy Hayden, perhaps. He's had a horrible year, sort of like E-Boz in '99, gets injured at the start of a pressured first year in a very good situation. Or not so good, if you believe Yates. He's a guy who's done very well on 600s over his career and is only 28. Not quite certain of his confidence, though, which I think took a permanent hit at Muzzy years ago. So he needs a comeback year first. Then there's Josh Herrin, Geoff May, Martin Cardenas, Blake Young, Danny Eslick, Jake Holden, Aaron Gobert, Ben Attard, Matt Lynn, Ryan Andrews, Chris Peris and others, all south of 30 but none having had a good ride in SB. Without that, they have no chance at the world level. Well, Cardenas does, because he's been there before. > There is a problem here with old racers who are still fast on the way > down blocking the younger racers on the way up. There's only so many > good rides in the lower championships. It will be a shame if WSB is so > full of ex-MotoGP riders that there's no room for new riders to make an > impression as second rider in a top team. I'm sure Dorna loves that, though, as it supports their notion of GP superiority and makes their 250 kids the default choice for MotoGP seats. It's a self-perpetuating situation.
From: T3 on 7 Oct 2007 12:29 "Julian Bond" <julian_bond(a)voidstar.com> wrote in message news:PFnmJICAjICHFAm$@jblaptop.voidstar.com... > - Are there any AMA riders not mentioned that should go to MotoGP or WSB > now? Heh, there's deserving USAin's that can't even get a SB look here, much less in Europe...
From: Alexey on 7 Oct 2007 13:17
On Oct 5, 4:36 pm, Mark N <menusb...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > Alexey wrote: > > Mark, what's the problem you're trying to solve? That rider weight is > > becoming more of an issue? It used to be an issue before too, just > > not to the same extent perhaps. > > Not remotely as much. As I've said repeatedly, this is an entirely new > phenomenon, as far as I know there's never been a premier class > champion below about 65kg / 145lbs, until now with Stoner at 128lbs. > And about two-thirds of next year's grid will be made up of riders > lighter than that historical cutoff. The reason why rider weight is becoming more important is because technology is allowing it. If a bunch of peopel are racing, being limited by chassis and tire technology, cornerspeed will be more important than getting a good drive out. If cornerspeed is more important, generally it's more of a function of chassis and suspension development. If drive is important, but the electronics aren't up to it (superbike), then overall skill and adaptability to the bike are more important. But if you've got electronics, chassis, and tires more or less taken care of, rider mass is going to matter more with respect to acceleration and braking capabilities. Remember MotoGP's hiring frency of superbike riders when 4-strokes appeared? That's because everyone expected there to be a period of time when tire and electronics were going to be behind the horsepower, so they needed riders with experience with bikes with similar charecteristics. Now electronics and to some degree tires have allowed bikes to be more like 250's again. So you hire 250 rides. I don't think there's anything unreasonable about that. Just because 250's aren't popular in the US, doesn't mean that Dorna should adapt to this particular market. And yet, they are. My understanding is that they are seeking a way to restructure the 2 support classes, most likely with introduction or switch to 4-stroke technology. They're understandably taking their time with it. But the primary motivators for doing so have to do with their desire to expand to new markets, such as US, Asia, and elsewhere. > So what? Physical attributes > > > (fitness, weight, height, etc.) are a major factor in virtually any > > form of athleticism on a professional level and certainly motorcycle > > racing is quite physical. Just because different racing series are > > currently resulting in different average physiology of their riders > > doesn't mean that one is more unfair or worse than the other. They're > > just different. > > That depends on what is driving the boat, and it's not at all clear > that what has happened here is that the bikes developed to a point > where smaller, lighter riders were at some fundamental advantage, so > they moved to the top of the class and teams responded by hiring more > of them. In fact that's not at all what's happened here. What I see > happening is that historically (meaning going back only 10-15 years) > the teams hired from 250; in fact, in 2002 only one of the top 14 > riders in points didn't come from 250 (Abe). There was in retrospect a > very short period at the start of MotoGP that teams also hired from > SB, but now that's reverting back to the way it was before. In the > meantime, 250 started hiring from 125 almost exclusively, which wasn't > really the case historically. > > What that means is riders coming into MotoGP today mostly have started > in 125, and it seems to succeeed in that class you have to be very > small, even with the bike-rider weight minimum. And 250 doesn't have > that minimum, so size/weight continues to matter there. In theory it > may not matter as much in MotoGP, but that almost doesn't matter if > the only guys who can get in the door are under 60 kgs. Exactly. There's a reason why it's reverted back to hiring from 250's and while you may think it's because of a vast conspiracy against globalization, I disagree. You're assigning attributes to business that business generally rejects, which is adhering to principles of nationalism in the face of a prospect of making more money globally. Even NASCAR is searching for a way to go international (they're already in Mexico and Canada for crying outloud). > Superbike and GP racing have demanded different > > > attributes for a long time. If I'm not mistaken, this large cross- > > over trend of riders going between the series is a fairly recent > > thing. Look at Rich Oliver -- the guy dominated 250's all his life, > > but could never quite jell with a production bike. > > Not that long - if you look at the American-Australian dominance era > from '78 through '98, most of the premier class championships were won > by ex-SB riders, and only one was won by a guy from 250, Franco Uncini > in '82. The flow from 250 to 500/MotoGP is a fairly recent phenomenon, > and from 125 to 250 to MotoGP even more recent. And I think a large > part of that is political - MotoGP and its teams want riders from the > countries who support the sport the most, for financial reasons, and > that has meant trying to find a way to get Spanish, Italian and > Japanese riders into those seats. That way has mostly been through > 250, which has been dominated by EuroMed and Japanese factories and > teams, and 250 riders have a leg up when it comes to experience in the > series. > > What these trends inevitably lead to are bikes that are shaped around > the guys that ride them. So MotoGP bikes have been and will be > developed with smaller riders with 125/250 skills in mind. Now we have > bikes that have to be ridden with wheels in line and with high corner > speed, and all that sliding around sems to be history. So who does > that favor? And the racing has become relatively boring - do we blame > that on electronics and 800cc bikes and the advanced state of the > tires, or should we also be blaming that on the guys riding and > developing the bikes? It's chicken-and-egg stuff, I think. As I said, I think it's the other way around. Sliding around with a barely tamable overpowered bike is going to be slower than riding the same power with better engine management systems. It may not look as good on TV, but it's more competitive. So when the bike becomes more like a 250 again, as was mentioned by lots of people in the paddock at the time 800's came about, as well as when the 990's were becoming more refined, you hire riders from that class. > > I don't quite get your earlier point about racial divide or > > favoritism. Not all Europeans are smaller than Americans. And even > > if they are smaller on average and that happens to be a good thing for > > a racer, so what? Being small doesn't guarantee success. On a bike, > > one has to also be strong. So while you can be light and compact, if > > you don't step up your physical fitness program more than your bigger > > oppenents, you won't last 5 laps at that pace. > > That as a general position makes sense, but it really doesn''t play in > this real world. If you look at the AMA, it's fairly clear that these > things matter, and we see guys at 145-170 pounds at the front, while > the smallest guy, DiSalvo, can't seem to do much more than the odd > fast lap and has been a big disappointment. But in GP today you don't > see anything like that, and the average MotoGP rider in 2008 may well > be smaller than the average rider in 250 only 8-10 years ago. Back > then Harada and Capirossi were the midgets in 250; today they would be > just part of the crowd, if not on the larger end. Superbikes are vastly different from GP bikes because the teams are constrained by the chassis baseline and much more restrictive electronics rules. It's completely logical that being small as an advantage will play second fiddle in superbike series to being an adaptive rider. > And as I agrued with Kveck the last couple weeks, I think when size > starts to matter that much, we inevitably lose talent, the kind of > talent that generated championships for the last 50-60 years, the kind > of talent that comes in a 145-165 pound body. So the midgets roll in, > but 160-pound Spies remains outside looking in, and it's not at all > certain that he won't remain there forever. Probably not, because he > rides for Suzuki and Dorna wants some Americans. Americans to create > interest in the US that is, and perhaps to win the occasional GP here, > but not to dominate they way they did in the '80s - the winning in > Europe and the championships are to go to their home boys, because > that's what pays off for them. It's not personal, it's business... You might say we always lose talent because no matter what the rulebook says, we will always have less grid spots available, than there may be worthy candidates. But that's not the point of a prototype series. If you want a spec series, where everything is equalized as much as possible, MotoGP is not it. MotoGP is about constructing a total package out of a rider, chassis, engine, tires, electronics, and yes, marketability. Praise whatever lord you believe in, though, that due to the nature of motorcycle racing, marketability is still a very long way behind the other qualities, at least as compared to car racing. |