One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
|
From: Mark N on 8 Oct 2007 09:49 Tweak wrote: > menusbaum(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net says... >> Tommy Hayden, perhaps. He's had a horrible year, sort of like E-Boz in >> '99, gets injured at the start of a pressured first year in a very good >> situation. Or not so good, if you believe Yates. > > What did Yates say? He said he wasn't getting the same level of support and equipment as Mladin and Spies.
From: sturd on 8 Oct 2007 12:27 Mark N's argument subtly changes: > It seems you go back and forth here between 250 skills and size, and > those things aren't quite the same thing, or shouldn't be. But they are > today, because in order to get into 250 you almost have to do 125 first > (250s in the national championships are disappearing, and what's left > has mostly been marginalized) and to be successful there, and that takes > very small size. Any rider over about 50kg will be running a weight > disadvantage in a class that is hyper-sensitive to that. The designation > of 125 as a training intro class and Puig's academy and the Red Bull > Rookies Cup all running 125s makes it all that much worse. 1. GP 125 has a weight rule so bigger guys are not at a disadvantage, weight-wise. 2. 250s have 110 HP these days. Certainly traction limited under acceleration out of most corners and thus there is an advantage to having slightly bigger guys (there). Are bigger guys overall at a disadvantage on 250's? Don't know but unless the fairing is too small for them, probably barely at worst. 3. If the weight argument is now about how to develop riders for MotoGP without disadvantaging bigger guys, putting weight on MotoGP's midgets won't help that. I like the 450 single idea. Make the rule so no homologation is required but neither do they have to be non-production based and let's see what we get. I bet a bunch of prodie based cases to start with, moving rapidly towards prototype. And keep the 125 two smokes for the kids, with weight limits. Go fast. Take chances. Mike S.
From: Julian Bond on 8 Oct 2007 14:26 sturd <mikesturdevant127(a)hotmail.com> Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:27:32 >I like the 450 single idea. Make the rule so no homologation >is required but neither do they have to be non-production >based and let's see what we get. I bet a bunch of prodie >based cases to start with, moving rapidly towards prototype. 450 MiniMonos turn about the same lap times as 125GP. So they would make a good entry level class. Just one problem though, tuned 450 MX motors without some changes in technology probably wouldn't survive the Mugello straight. >And keep the 125 two smokes for the kids, with weight limits. Run them side by side with 450 Minimonos with suitable weight breaks to make the 4 strokes just slightly faster. The Metrakits/KTMs/Aprilias are cheap and fast but they're going to have to go. It's the middle class to replace 250GP which is tough. 110->140hp means 600-4s (675-3s, 750-2s) or prototype 400/500-2s. None of that is cheap. Or the likely factories don't actually have anything right now. Or it interferes with deals already done with WSS. Somebody round here will say that the above doesn't show enough out of the box thinking. Perhaps she'd like to suggest an alternative. I know. Let's have Superstock 1000s as the support class to MotoGP. ;) -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat *** Just Say No To DRM ***
From: Alexey on 8 Oct 2007 15:24 On Oct 8, 12:27 pm, sturd <mikesturdevant...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > Mark N's argument subtly changes: > > > It seems you go back and forth here between 250 skills and size, and > > those things aren't quite the same thing, or shouldn't be. But they are > > today, because in order to get into 250 you almost have to do 125 first > > (250s in the national championships are disappearing, and what's left > > has mostly been marginalized) and to be successful there, and that takes > > very small size. Any rider over about 50kg will be running a weight > > disadvantage in a class that is hyper-sensitive to that. The designation > > of 125 as a training intro class and Puig's academy and the Red Bull > > Rookies Cup all running 125s makes it all that much worse. > > 1. GP 125 has a weight rule so bigger guys are not at a disadvantage, > weight-wise. > > 2. 250s have 110 HP these days. Certainly traction limited under > acceleration out of most corners and thus there is an advantage to > having slightly bigger guys (there). Are bigger guys overall at > a disadvantage on 250's? Don't know but unless the fairing > is too small for them, probably barely at worst. > > 3. If the weight argument is now about how to develop riders for > MotoGP without disadvantaging bigger guys, putting weight on > MotoGP's midgets won't help that. > > I like the 450 single idea. Make the rule so no homologation > is required but neither do they have to be non-production > based and let's see what we get. I bet a bunch of prodie > based cases to start with, moving rapidly towards prototype. > > And keep the 125 two smokes for the kids, with weight limits. > > Go fast. Take chances. > Mike S. Agreed. Just came across this article (includes video) on the Roland Sands' motocross-derived 450 prototypes: http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=479
From: sturd on 8 Oct 2007 15:40
Julian Bond says: > 450 MiniMonos turn about the same lap times as 125GP. So they would make > a good entry level class. Just one problem though, tuned 450 MX motors > without some changes in technology probably wouldn't survive the Mugello > straight. You're talking production engines. I'm not though I wouldn't prevent anybody from starting with a production engine. Just looking at MX, the 125 two smokes got smoked by 250 four strokes. The 250 two strokes got blasted by 450's. All proddy stuff sure but I'm betting a team like Aprilia could make a prototype-ish, fast, 450 fairly quickly. > It's the middle class to replace 250GP which is tough. 110->140hp That might be tough though. Glad it's Dorna/IRTA/FIM's problem, not mine. Go fast. Take chances. Mike S. |