One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
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From: Mark N on 8 Oct 2007 16:47 sturd wrote: > Mark N's argument subtly changes: How so? > > It seems you go back and forth here between 250 skills and size, and > > those things aren't quite the same thing, or shouldn't be. But they are > > today, because in order to get into 250 you almost have to do 125 first > > (250s in the national championships are disappearing, and what's left > > has mostly been marginalized) and to be successful there, and that takes > > very small size. Any rider over about 50kg will be running a weight > > disadvantage in a class that is hyper-sensitive to that. The designation > > of 125 as a training intro class and Puig's academy and the Red Bull > > Rookies Cup all running 125s makes it all that much worse. > > 1. GP 125 has a weight rule so bigger guys are not at a disadvantage, > weight-wise. No, unless the guys you're talking about weigh 45 and 50 kg (and 50kg is only 110 pounds). In the real world Hayden racing Pedrosa on 125s would mean Dani has a 40-pound weight advantage, just like in MotoGP - over about 50kg it's all added weight to the combined package. This assumes today's 125s are built down to the old 80kg minimum (176 pounds), and without facts I doubt that we can assume they're lighter than that. > 2. 250s have 110 HP these days. Certainly traction limited under > acceleration out of most corners and thus there is an advantage to > having slightly bigger guys (there). >From apex to braking zone I do not accept that heavier guys have an advantage on 250s. If that's true, then it would be even more true on MotoGP machines, which are even more traction-limited. But I really don't see Pedrosa and Stoner suffering in that regard. If there is a slight advantage to heavier riders right out of a corner, then it's heavily offset everywhere else on a lap. Are bigger guys overall at > a disadvantage on 250's? Don't know but unless the fairing > is too small for them, probably barely at worst. Aerodynamics, corner grip, tire compound, top-end acceleration, even braking, it all favors the little guys. If they are not advantaged, tell us why all the top guys in the class in terms of results are under 130 pounds. > 3. If the weight argument is now about how to develop riders for > MotoGP without disadvantaging bigger guys, putting weight on > MotoGP's midgets won't help that. No, it probably wouldn't that much, unless they don't do anything about 250 and 125. If not, then it would act as something of an inhibitor for teams to hire smaller guys in MotoGP. But if they put real-world rider minimums in 125 and 250 (riders without gear at 65kg or more), then it would matter less. That doesn't mean I don't think they should have one anyway; I think it would be a good thing to establish a reasonable rider minimum for all classes. > I like the 450 single idea. Make the rule so no homologation > is required but neither do they have to be non-production > based and let's see what we get. I bet a bunch of prodie > based cases to start with, moving rapidly towards prototype. That's one possibility, although I'd prefer something like 500cc twins replacing 125s. I really don't see any need for prototype motors in the support classes, unless there just isn't anything on a production basis that would work.
From: Julian Bond on 9 Oct 2007 02:54 Alexey <inline_four(a)yahoo.com> Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:24:08 >Agreed. Just came across this article (includes video) on the Roland >Sands' motocross-derived 450 prototypes: >http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=479 "As this bike was built to inspire a class of Thumper roadracers, the converted 'crosser's displacement, frame, swingarm, ignition and gearbox are kept stock to keep the racing close." MX frame, swingarm? I've never heard of anyone doing this in Minimono. It's usually a converted 125 frame or a special frame from someone like Tigcraft. I'm not sure what the point is about this particular bike since people have already been doing this stuff in established classes for the last couple of years. When minimono was first introduced, people used the 250GP sized wheels and fairing and just downsized the engine. But it quickly became obvious that it was much better to downsize everything and fitting 125GP sized wheels knocked seconds off laptimes. Which is another reason for going down this route. A minimono based replacement could use all the suspension, brake, wheel, tyre technology that 125GP has now. -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat *** Just Say No To DRM ***
From: sturd on 9 Oct 2007 09:13 Julian Bond notes: > And there are plenty of people making 450 MX > engines. Perhaps Husquarna or BMW (same thing?) could run a team. And > how about Ducati? They have plenty of experience of big pistons. > Actually look at the list of companies that have made 450-550 singles or > 1000 V-Twins and it's huge. Perhaps Ducati could dust off the supermono, > cut the stroke a bit and fit a 999 head to it. I went back and looked at a recent Cycle Spew article on riding Bayliss's 2007 999. It claims 193 HP. This is from a near GP level engine, minus only a little technology. So half of it making 100 HP might not be so unreasonable if the rules allow going for it as they should. I vote 500 singles to replace 250 2strokes. We can call it the Manx Cup. Go fast. Take chances. Mike S.
From: Mark N on 9 Oct 2007 10:10 sturd wrote: > Julian Bond notes: > >> And there are plenty of people making 450 MX >> engines. Perhaps Husquarna or BMW (same thing?) could run a team. And >> how about Ducati? They have plenty of experience of big pistons. >> Actually look at the list of companies that have made 450-550 singles or >> 1000 V-Twins and it's huge. Perhaps Ducati could dust off the supermono, >> cut the stroke a bit and fit a 999 head to it. > > I went back and looked at a recent Cycle Spew article on riding > Bayliss's 2007 999. It claims 193 HP. This is from a near GP level > engine, minus only a little technology. > > So half of it making 100 HP might not be so unreasonable if > the rules allow going for it as they should. > > I vote 500 singles to replace 250 2strokes. We can call it the > Manx Cup. Yeah, and they could require the riders to wear pudding bowl helmets and work boots and all-black leathers! And of course 125 should be replaced with a class that's half of this, a 250cc half-single. Well, that might be tough to make work, so maybe they use a 500cc motor but limit the piston to do only upward strokes...
From: Mark N on 10 Oct 2007 03:06
Alexey wrote: > Mark N wrote: >> There's a lot of assumption there that I question. First, I don't know >> that getting into roadracing at a very early age is necessarily >> something that pays off later on at the highest levels. Plenty of top >> riders have started out on the dirt and much later transitioned to >> pavement. If kids are roadracing early on, smaller bikes are better than >> big, powerful ones, of course. But 125s are hardly cheap - what does a >> new RS125 cost today? I also don't know that riders in Europe start >> racing earlier than riders over here, historically it's been exactly the >> opposite. And didn't Rossi himself start out on carts and then went to >> bikes? In any case, we're talking about GP and not what sub-16-year-olds >> race on at a lower level. > > Rossi started with karting, but very early on switched to minibike > racing, where he started to succeed. From there on, it wasn't a big > jump onto a 125 as he was growing up and getting better. So it > actually shows how the lightweight-middleweight-heavyweight formula > can work in rider development. > > A 15 or 16 year old could easily fit that physical criterion of being > small and fit. To me, that's the point of having 125's or whatever > they might get replaced with in the context of GP's. It makes for a > good stepping stone into the series for young talent coming from all > over the world, provided there are similar machines being raced all > over the world. If we go to 450 4-stroke singles, that may very well > take off in places, where 125 racing is stagnant or dying now, such as > the US. As to the question of cost, a used 125 RS or TZ is on par > with cost with a used 250 4-stroke dirtbike. What we need here is > more tracks and more accessible parts (4-strokes would certainly fit > the bill). >> If you worship at the knee of Alberto Puig, it is... > I don't worship anyone. If you disagree with my point without giving > a reason why, that's fine. Okay, I'll tell you why. If you look at the historical picture, 125s hardly have a legacy of being a development tool for great riders. I don't think the AMA has ever had a 125 class, yet probably more SB and GP world champions have come from the US than anywhere, at least over the last 30, 35 years. Even among Europeans 125 wasn't viewed as a development class for GP, rather it was more of the premier tiddler class, the top rung for a very different sort of breed of rider. Then things changed shortly after Dorna took over commercial rights to the series in the early '90s. At the same time that the series seemed to be hugely focused on getting EuroMed and Japanese riders into 500, driven largely by commercial interests, Dorna also decided to make 125 a development class, first establishing a maximum number of seasons riders could compete there, and now having an age limit instead. At the same time we saw Criville and Capirossi move from 125 championships to 250 and on to 500, and when Criville won the 500 championship in 1999, he became only the second 125 champion to go on to win in 500 (Read, the '68 125 champ, was the first). Two years later Rossi became the third, and also the first 250 champion to go on to win in 500 since Read, who also won the 250 championship, in '71. So was there something about the 125 and 250 route that best prepared riders for 500? I seriously doubt it, rather that's where the European riders (and later Japanese) were dominating, and that route gave them a big track experience advantage. In many cases they moved up on the same teams they raced on in the lower classes, by the '90s the non-factory teams were leasing near-factory bikes, and most of those teams had moved up from the lower classes. To my view this wasn't about superior training, it was about "re-Europeanizing" GP, after 20 years of American and Australian champions who came into 500 from outside the series. It doesn't take any brilliance to figure out why the business end of GP would want to see this, and the timing was much more than coincidental. So Puig comes along and institutionalizes all this, developing his "underground railroad" through 125 and 250, all paid for by Telefonica, and starts his training academy using 125s, and that all this was centered in Spain, the home of Dorna, the center of the old tiddler class, also the new center of GP popularity, is not coincidental. So now he has kids on GP tracks as young as 13, can claim at least some responsibility for many of the new breed, and is now viewed as the pied piper of GP mentorship (and the Svengali of midgetry, btw). In the process he has built a huge power base, but also continues to Europeanize GP in the process, and that was the real desire of Dorna. Now, instead of watching outsiders dominate their premier championship and their own boys fail miserably, Dorna can pull the strings and effectively have now put a near-monopoly stamp on the top championship in the world. And everyone seems to buy into it, you have to ride a 125 as a teenager or you'll never develop the skills to be MotoGP world champion. But that's only really true from a systemic standpoint, it probably has very little to do with actual skill development found on a 125. I think a top kid could ride 125s in this country for years, but he'd never get anywhere unless someone lets him in the door in the GP power structure. And they probably won't do that just because he's got talent, they will only do that if it supports other desires, if it enhances their control and income. >> And what other choice to you want? Personally, I don't think she should >> have one, she shouldn't be racing in GPs for at least another five >> years, and in between racing in the top series in this country is what >> she and others should be doing, unless they want to go to another >> country to do the same. What they race on is the real issue in this >> discussion. > > I'm not saying it's terrible in and of itself. It's just that right > now it's a choice that may have future implications on where her > career can go. Those implications wouldn't be there and it would be > less of a career path issue if AMA had lightweight racing classes that > were compatible with something on the international scene. They do, they have SSport, which is also a support class in WSB. If you're talking about GP only, I doubt it matters. The AMA doesn't allow anyone to compete until they're 16, so you're talking about someone showing their stuff at age 17 or 18 (assuming it takes time to get up to speed). So are European 125 teams going to hire someone like that? I seriously have my doubts, just as European WSS teams have never hired American riders. And 125 is a European monopoly from a team standpoint, if not from a riders standpoint (and that by the thinnest of margins). Racing 125s in the US isn't going to suddenly open up GP to Americans,or Australians, or anyone outside of Europe, and that's mostly southern Europe. >> Who is advocating that? Do you have some fundamental problem with using >> a motor that makes 115-140 multi-cylinder horsepower? Because that's all >> we're talking about. And it's about a replacement class for 250, not 125. > > My point is that modern production 600's can be very fast and also > very expensive in some respects, especially if raced under something > like the AMA FX spec. If 600's were used as a replacement for 250's, > I feel like they'd get too close to the big bikes and too far from the > little bikes, both in terms of cost and performance. I do like the 3- > class structure, but I'm getting the feeling you don't. Maybe that's > what we should be discussing. I have no problem at all with three classes, I think it should stay that way. Where I have problems is this notion that two of them have to utilize "little bikes". From my standpoint, I'd like to see the replacement for 250 be a class that bears more resemblance to MotoGP, but one that can stand fully on its own and not just operate to prep riders for MotoGP. That's what 250 used to be, but for the last ten years it's just been a rider assembly line. I almost can't imagine something better than racing chassis holding modified middleweight street motors. In size they would be around MotoGP bikes and smaller and lighter and less powerful than SBs, which strikes me as fine. The motors have known racing capability and would be relatively cheap to build and maintain. Chassis could be made by independent builders, and motors built by the teams, which provides for a non-factory path almost entirely missing from GP for years. And the factories would almost certainly get involved, as they have every reason to, from promoting their street stuff to R&D development on the chassis. Today the four Japanese factories have motors ready to go, Ducati has one (if 750 twins are allowed), so does Aprilia, Triumph has their 675 triple that they are about to start racing in WSS, and MV Agusta is about to come out with their own 675-3. The stuff is just sitting there waiting. I don't know what mod limit to place on the motors, but electronics certainly should be limited. My guess is 120-130 horsepower is the range, and that's significantly different from MotoGP and with the added weight they wouldn't be much faster than 250s. Limits could be put on chassis exotics, to contain costs. These bikes would also likely break up the EuroMed support class monopoly, and would create a viable entry point for younger guys coming up in the SB world. So what's not to like? Some sense of "purity", or GP spoiled by actual street parts? Too much size and weight? I think that's in-the-box traditionalist thinking, that somehow the bikes have to be small, to be race-only, to be directly connected to either MotoGP machines (slicing and dicing) or to 250s (which are hardly prototypes anyway). >> You think so? I'm not so sure. I think the interest level in small bikes >> is mostly based on what sells for the street, and in this country that's >> not much. I do think it's a good thing if there are small, cheap bikes >> out there for kids to learn to race on, but I'm not convinced that >> they'll make for popular racing at the national championship level. I >> hope something like that takes off, though, but I'm not optimistic. > The interest in small bikes in this country is changing for the > better. I think the success of SV650's, motard bikes, and Kawasaki's > brand new Ninja 650 and revamp of Ninja 250 are all evidence of that. As the owner of a CB400F and an FZR400, I'd love to see it. But I have my doubts. >> Spec racing at the GP level? No way, unless they abandon any pretense of >> it being anything other than a training class. > It's already being attempted by Red Bull. Let's wait and see if spec > racing works out. I don't think it's a terrible idea. I do. The Red Bull series is a kiddies development exercise, but it's hardly GP racing. Spec racing may be close and exciting, but it ultimately leaves one flat, unfulfilled. In the end it always ends up a contrivance. >> Which one is that? If you don't think Dorna cares who is running up >> front, I think you're crazy. If it's just that last sentence, imagine >> that right now MotoGP was being filled up with tiny Americans and >> Australians from SB. Do you seriously think that Dorna wouldn't step in >> to protect the interests of their EuroMed riders, teams, sponsors, fans >> by establishing a rider weight minimum? If not, I think you really need >> to take a time out and do a reality check... > Sure, let's go with your last sentence. You're speculating. Of course, because that situation doesn't exist in the real world. But there's almost nothing that's happened with GP in the last 15 years, since Dorna took over, that's inconsistent with this line of thinking. Now if you think Dorna would be just as happy having GP dominated by Americans as it once was, especially if European fans suspected that it was a weight advantage that contributed, I'd like to know the thought process behind that. >>> More of the same conspiracy theory. >> Why is this "conspiracy theory" but when you make certain claims, it's >> just good business? > Because you're starting with an assumption, do a big circle of > arguments, and come back to prove the assumption. That's speculation, > which, while entertaining, is not solid reason unless you can disprove > other ways of looking at the situation. Simply coming up with one > hypothesis that fits the reality in one way doesn't make it logical > proof that it is so. All we have is the evidence in hand, and the knowledge of human behavior, and understanding of commercial activities. We know Dorna has made efforts to broaden the nationality mix in GP, but only with ties to countries with races, and they only go so far with that. What that's about seems entirely obvious to me. >> That's not entirely true. Dorna definitely wants a piece of the American >> pie, and they made compromises to make Laguna happen. But it was SCRAMP >> and not Dorna who thought bringing 125 and 250 along would be a mistake, >> too expensive, too foreign. They have a contract with Dorna that runs >> until 2010, but now Dorna has Indy as well, and they have agreed to take >> 125 and 250. If that event really takes off and the MotoGP riders are >> tolerant of the track, then don't be surprised if Laguna is forced to >> take the support classes in the next contract, or perhaps the race will >> be dropped entirely. It's in Dorna's interest to have their support >> classes run here as everywhere else, and I doubt that Indy was given any >> choice. Laguna may be next. > Care to site your sources on the details of the SCRAMP deal? Care to cite yours? what I know is what I recall was written and said at the time the deal was done, and I know what Laguna must have observed from running world championship races for nearly two decades - and I've been to all of them. With the exception of the first race in '88, the first four GPs didn't draw hugetly and were somewhat marginal. When the IRTA, supported by the factories and encouraged by Ecclestone, overthrew the FIM, Laguna bailed because they couldn't afford it any longer, with the $1.5M fee and loss of all trackside signage. Then Roberts lost a lot of money trying to run 125 as well as 250 and 500 in 93-94. The WSB round was more successful, and it included the support classes from the AMA, which cost relatively little to bring in. WSS was tried for a couple years, but the experience was the same as with 125 - more cost, little real interest. Then the whole AMA show was combined with WSB and the thing really took off. I think the lessons of that are obvious, and it's equally obvious why Dorna would want their support classes at Laguna. But they compromised to allow the event to be a successful one; it was more important to get a toehold in America than to have it all and have it fail. And I can't imagine it was all their idea and not the SCRAMP's. >>> You're forgetting Honda hiring Chris Walker straight from British >>> superbike to ride a 500, most likely as an attempt to acclimate a >>> superbike rider to the series and the tracks before having him kick >>> butt on a 4-stroke. It didn't work out, but that was most likely >>> their intention, so it wasn't just the new and second-tier teams that >>> were looking at superbike riders. >> Oh, I don't buy that at all. He was hired into GP in late 2000, right? >> At that time Honda had the new WSB champion in 26-year-old Edwards, they >> had 19-year-old Hayden coming off a great rookie year in AMA SB, and >> they had 23-year-old Tamada coming off a 3rd in AJRR SB. So they hired >> 30-something Walker (who knows what his real age is) out of BSB from >> Suzuki to be their guy for the four stroke era still more than a year >> away (and two for anyone not on the factory team)? All Honda did was to >> give that team an NSR for him to race on (and I think it was a '00 >> model), and he didn't even last out the year. I think it's more likely >> that Dorna greased the wheels on that to get a Brit into the series - >> the UK hadn't had a rider on a factory four-cylinder machine since, >> what, 1992 with MacKenzie? And think about what attendance was like at >> Donington then, around 20k for GPs while WSB at Brands absolutely packed >> 'em in, 6-7 times that. Dorna was fighting a war. > Once again, you're using your original assumption to prove itself. No, I'm not, I'm using the patterns of experience and circumstances to determine the cause of this effect. On the one hand, you have Honda, always reluctant to ever hire factory riders away from other Japanese factories, looking at the future and already contracting Rossi in 500, Katoh in 250, Edwards in WSB, Hayden in AMA SB, and Tamada surprising everyone on a non-factory Honda in AJRR, all in their early or mid 20s. So they hire Walker out of BSB, a guy riding for Suzuki and with little world experience and pushing 30 if not beyond. Honda, who didn't even support a factory team in BSB at that time. Or you have Dorna, who we know supported the hiring of Ellison and Byrne more recently by lease teams with limited financial resources (and perhaps also Toseland today), to get British riders into the series, facing a serious challenge from WSB on a worldwide basis. Spain was safely in their camp, of course, and Japan was likely theirs as well, but Italy, even with the successful Mugello round and with riders like Rossi, Biaggi and Capirossi in 500, was contested by WSB with popular Chili, three WSB rounds (Monza, Misano, Imola), and was the home of Ducati, after all, so no slam dunk there. The US had a growing WSB event plus Bostrom and new champ Edwards, and really no hope for GP, even with champ Roberts. GP luckily had new sensation McCoy, but WSB had Corser, Bayliss, and maybe Gobert, so Australia was contested. But in the UK, WSB was coming off of four Fogarty championships, had two rounds, one that drew three times what GP did at the same track and the other drawing five times as well as GP. In BSB 2000 saw the best championship fight in memory between Walker and Hodgson, and Hodgson and his team were headed for WSB and Walker and his team expected to follow. SB was king, Britain would be called SB Island, and GP seemed almost dead there. So does Dorna use their influence to get a team set up with factory equipment (sort of) and hire Walker? Strikes me as entirely plausible, much more than Honda falling in love with his future potential. >> It's not sinister, it's just business. And I wouldn't rule it out, Dorna >> could have helped out Aprilia to get Edwards in the fold (remember that >> he'd already made a verbal agreement with Ducati in WSB), could have >> played a part in the Hayden move, could have helped Suzuki to decide on >> out-of-work Hopkins (WCM had no bikes for '03). 2003 was a huge year for >> MotoGP, the year they really came out of the two-stroke darkness, and >> those riders had a lot to do with it. > Do you know that Dorna helped Aprilia hire Edwards? Or are you still > speculating? Speculating, absolutely. Was that somehow unclear? >>> Uh, Rossi isn't tiny. And he stayed on top during the 4-stroke switch >>> in large measure because he adapted his riding style. Now he's had to >>> adapt his style back to the no-sliding kind of way. All the while top >>> runners have been changing because most others have not had as easy of >>> a time with the changes. >> And he's "the greatest racer in motorcycle history", right? > I would certainly say he's demonstrated an ability to adapt to > different ways of riding. Is that something you're going to dispute > or just laugh it off and get back to the same tired soapbox? No, I'm just saying a guy with that talent and brains and drive hardly needs the perfect development route to get to the top, so he doesn't really justify that path as the answer. >> That's impossible to say. Hayden in fact may be the superior racer, but >> has been fighting not only Pedrosa's size but also Honda's favoritism. I >> don't accept that they simply are of equal ability, which, if you also >> accept that they get equal treatment by Honda, would be necessary in >> order to use the measure of results to determine what effect size has. >> And it is quite possible that Pedrosa is below the line, too small to be >> ideal in MotoGP today. I don't argue that today's optimum-sized rider in >> MotoGP is under 50kg, not at all. I really don't know where that point >> is, but I think it's dropped. > Then saying Hayden is a "superior" rider is also impossible to say. Of course. All I'm saying is that Hayden winning a championship and Pedrosa not yet winning one is hardly material evidence that size doesn't favor smaller riders in MotoGP. >>> And it's not due to any one thing. It's due to the >>> total package Ducati-Stoner-Bridgestones-electronics proved to be. >> Agreed. But size may well have been a contributing factor. In any case, >> it doesn't matter - in the '90s JIS/ex-250 riders steadily replaced >> Americans and Australian ex-SBers, but that wasn't really based on >> results, it was just the politics of GP and money. Today we're right >> about where we were back in 92-93, with the new 800s being something >> like the big bang 500s, easier to ride for those from 250, and a steady >> flow of 250-sourced riders coming in. At that time most people didn't >> realize GP was about to go through a profound change, and the same may >> be the case today. As I've said, the new classes, particularly GP2 if it >> goes to 600s, are the best hope that things won't slip too far. > Whatever the formula, I do agree that a healthy mix of 2- and 4- > strokes would breathe new life into it. Not following you there - are you saying the 250 replacement class should include both 2-strokes and 4-strokes? Maybe transitionally, but not permanently, and not if allowing for that effects the nature of the replacement class. MotoGP did that for one year, and that resulted in the perceived need to reduce displacement this year. Probably necessary there, but I don't think it would be in the support classes. >>> Remember when Haga was penalized when he failed a drug test due to a >>> diet supplement? That was in WSBK and Haga wasn't a big guy ever. >> No, but he was heavier than he could have been, and was fighting that >> weight issue. At one point Yates dropped from about 190 to 170, and that >> must have been because it gave him an added edge. Weight matters in bike >> racing, in any class. Today in GP it matters too much. > That's a subjective statement. Too much for what? What is your ideal > vision of the series? I've said what I'd like to see in the middle class, and I'm not convinced that there is a serious problem with the definition of MotoGP today. I don't want to see the nationality issue as prominent as it is today, and ideally MotoGP would be the place where the best meet the best on relatively equal footing. This midget business is a real problem, but mostly symptomatic of the nationality bias and the desire to source riders from inside the series. I think the revised middle class would take care of a lot of that over time, but I'd still like to see some sort of weight equalization. The smallest class, I'm just not sure. I accept that a training class is a legitimate purpose, but I'd like to see more than that, something that would make it stand on its own more, and I don't like the age limit thing. But realistically it will probably end up a singles class with very small bikes, as the tiddler tradition is too strong in GP to change that. At minimum I'd like to see a significantly higher rider minimum weight established, ballasting anyone under about 60kg (dry weight, not clothed). >> To me the point is, do you want bike racing to be something that >> normal-looking guys excel at, which is something that I really like >> about it, or do you want it to be something that is dominated by guys as >> freakish as NBA centers? Pedrosa is no more a normal person than Tim >> Duncan, you know. And as centers usually have less skill than guards but >> make up for it with sheer size, the midgets will likely have less skill >> than larger riders but will make up for it with sheer size. The >> difference is, you can really do something about the latter. > > Well, then why not make it so 250 lb guys would be competitive as > well? And the 100 lb guys too. And the guys with poor vision. And > the guys with asthma. And so on. Why not just make it a video game? Don't be stupid. Wanting guys in the size range of almost every GP and SB champion in history not to be disadvantaged by their weight is nothing like that. > I don't care if they look "normal" or not. Personally, I can see > normal looking guys and girls racing with me at a club level. It's a > great show, but why does that have to apply to a series that's > supposed to combine the greatest attributes of the whole package? > Note, that I'm not saying that MotoGP absolutely has to have the > greatest riders in the world. I don't think it's possible to quantify > that anyway. One rider may fit one bike better than another. Does > that mean that he or she gets better or worse when switching those > bikes? Or series. Or styles of riding. You get the picture. What > do you define as skill? There are guys at the Isle of Mann that are > faster than others because others don't have the balls to push it as > far. There are similar elements in any racing discipline. Is having > pure aggression part of the skill? Me, I suspect the only people who choose to define small size as a skill are likely small themselves, or see smallness as another aspect of racing "purity" - the "true racing machines" today are very small, that means small riders, so that's okay, almost desirable. If weight is a disadvantage, then screw 'em, let them eat cake. What I think that denies, among other things, is a sense of cause and effect - it's quite clear to me that the reason that riders in MotoGP are generally getting smaller is NOT that smaller riders have generally been more and more successful in that class - Rossi and Hayden and Roberts aren't appreciably smaller than Rainey and Doohan and Schwantz, or Lawson and Gardner and Spencer. So it arises for other reasons. >>> If you're a hammer, everything is a nail. >> Whatever. Sounds to me like you have no answer. Or love the "pure racing >> machines" so much you don't care what comes with them. I don't think >> that way. > Your argument that size makes it more European and is the sole reason > for existing as a byproduct of a rule doesn't make sense. Are you > saying Americans are fatter than Europeans? If so, tough cookie if > this country can't produce riders that are small enough, while Europe > can. Because we're not that different racially. If anything, that > rule would be making the series more Asian, but it's not as of yet. > That's my point -- you're seeing every single aspect of the series > through the same conspiracy theory pryzm. No, I think I just see it without blinders on. The Euros in MotoGP are smaller because they came up through the filter of 125 and 250, not because those people are generally smaller (although they might be to some degree). But once there, they have an effect on the equipment - Honda's "more compact riders for the compact bikes of the future", or was it the other way around? And on the mentality of it all - people think 125s are God's gift to rider development today, but is that really the product of anything beyond GP EuroMed bias and favoritism and propaganda? Why did Elias and Pedrosa and Lorenzo come to MotoGP from 125 and 250, while Xaus came through WSS and WSB? You don't think size had something to do with it? American racers come up racing street stuff, so there's nothing that filters out size nearly to the extent 125s do. Our best guys are that because of talent and desire, not because of small size. So should that disqualify them? The Aussies and Brits are mostly in the same boat. The Japanese presence in world racing is almost entirely controlled by their factories - how many Japanese riders head out into the world on their own like the Aussies do? It almost seems like a big deal when one switches to an Italian factory, like Harada and Haga did, after being out there. So why did they stop exporting? Who knows, maybe it was embarrassment over ten years of abysmal performances. It's not all that complicated, but if you don't buy into it or even understand it at this point, you probably never will... |