One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
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From: Champ on 10 Oct 2007 05:18 On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:06:37 -0700, Mark N <menusbaum(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: >Okay, I'll tell you why. If you look at the historical picture, 125s >hardly have a legacy of being a development tool for great riders. I >don't think the AMA has ever had a 125 class, yet probably more SB and >GP world champions have come from the US than anywhere, at least over >the last 30, 35 years. Even among Europeans 125 wasn't viewed as a >development class for GP, rather it was more of the premier tiddler >class, the top rung for a very different sort of breed of rider. I can't usually be bothered to wade through your posts (501 lines on this one, a new record I think - well done), but I thought I'd point out that you are picking your data to match your theory. Sure, 125s haven't been a development tool since the 70s. But, if you look further back, the following 'great riders' raced 125s: - Gary Hocking - Jim Redman - Mike Hailwood - Phil Read - Barry Sheene Sure, this was all a long time ago, but then so is the era of a production line of fast, dirt track schooled riders from the USA. And even as late as 1986 and 1990, Cadalora and Capirossi (respectively) started in 125s. -- Champ
From: Alexey on 10 Oct 2007 10:40 Mark N wrote: > Alexey wrote: > > Mark N wrote: > > >> There's a lot of assumption there that I question. First, I don't know > >> that getting into roadracing at a very early age is necessarily > >> something that pays off later on at the highest levels. Plenty of top > >> riders have started out on the dirt and much later transitioned to > >> pavement. If kids are roadracing early on, smaller bikes are better than > >> big, powerful ones, of course. But 125s are hardly cheap - what does a > >> new RS125 cost today? I also don't know that riders in Europe start > >> racing earlier than riders over here, historically it's been exactly the > >> opposite. And didn't Rossi himself start out on carts and then went to > >> bikes? In any case, we're talking about GP and not what sub-16-year-olds > >> race on at a lower level. > > > > Rossi started with karting, but very early on switched to minibike > > racing, where he started to succeed. From there on, it wasn't a big > > jump onto a 125 as he was growing up and getting better. So it > > actually shows how the lightweight-middleweight-heavyweight formula > > can work in rider development. > > > > A 15 or 16 year old could easily fit that physical criterion of being > > small and fit. To me, that's the point of having 125's or whatever > > they might get replaced with in the context of GP's. It makes for a > > good stepping stone into the series for young talent coming from all > > over the world, provided there are similar machines being raced all > > over the world. If we go to 450 4-stroke singles, that may very well > > take off in places, where 125 racing is stagnant or dying now, such as > > the US. As to the question of cost, a used 125 RS or TZ is on par > > with cost with a used 250 4-stroke dirtbike. What we need here is > > more tracks and more accessible parts (4-strokes would certainly fit > > the bill). > > >> If you worship at the knee of Alberto Puig, it is... > > > I don't worship anyone. If you disagree with my point without giving > > a reason why, that's fine. > > Okay, I'll tell you why. If you look at the historical picture, 125s > hardly have a legacy of being a development tool for great riders. I > don't think the AMA has ever had a 125 class, yet probably more SB and > GP world champions have come from the US than anywhere, at least over > the last 30, 35 years. Even among Europeans 125 wasn't viewed as a > development class for GP, rather it was more of the premier tiddler > class, the top rung for a very different sort of breed of rider. Then > things changed shortly after Dorna took over commercial rights to the > series in the early '90s. At the same time that the series seemed to be > hugely focused on getting EuroMed and Japanese riders into 500, driven > largely by commercial interests, Dorna also decided to make 125 a > development class, first establishing a maximum number of seasons riders > could compete there, and now having an age limit instead. At the same > time we saw Criville and Capirossi move from 125 championships to 250 > and on to 500, and when Criville won the 500 championship in 1999, he > became only the second 125 champion to go on to win in 500 (Read, the > '68 125 champ, was the first). Two years later Rossi became the third, > and also the first 250 champion to go on to win in 500 since Read, who > also won the 250 championship, in '71. > > So was there something about the 125 and 250 route that best prepared > riders for 500? I seriously doubt it, rather that's where the European > riders (and later Japanese) were dominating, and that route gave them a > big track experience advantage. In many cases they moved up on the same > teams they raced on in the lower classes, by the '90s the non-factory > teams were leasing near-factory bikes, and most of those teams had moved > up from the lower classes. To my view this wasn't about superior > training, it was about "re-Europeanizing" GP, after 20 years of American > and Australian champions who came into 500 from outside the series. It > doesn't take any brilliance to figure out why the business end of GP > would want to see this, and the timing was much more than coincidental. > > So Puig comes along and institutionalizes all this, developing his > "underground railroad" through 125 and 250, all paid for by Telefonica, > and starts his training academy using 125s, and that all this was > centered in Spain, the home of Dorna, the center of the old tiddler > class, also the new center of GP popularity, is not coincidental. So now > he has kids on GP tracks as young as 13, can claim at least some > responsibility for many of the new breed, and is now viewed as the pied > piper of GP mentorship (and the Svengali of midgetry, btw). In the > process he has built a huge power base, but also continues to > Europeanize GP in the process, and that was the real desire of Dorna. > > Now, instead of watching outsiders dominate their premier championship > and their own boys fail miserably, Dorna can pull the strings and > effectively have now put a near-monopoly stamp on the top championship > in the world. And everyone seems to buy into it, you have to ride a 125 > as a teenager or you'll never develop the skills to be MotoGP world > champion. But that's only really true from a systemic standpoint, it > probably has very little to do with actual skill development found on a > 125. I think a top kid could ride 125s in this country for years, but > he'd never get anywhere unless someone lets him in the door in the GP > power structure. And they probably won't do that just because he's got > talent, they will only do that if it supports other desires, if it > enhances their control and income. I don't understand what your point is. Puig is training kids on 125's. Some of them go on to have careers in the series. Okay. What about any of this makes it unfair?
From: Mark N on 10 Oct 2007 10:44 Champ wrote: > Mark N wrote: >> Okay, I'll tell you why. If you look at the historical picture, 125s >> hardly have a legacy of being a development tool for great riders. I >> don't think the AMA has ever had a 125 class, yet probably more SB and >> GP world champions have come from the US than anywhere, at least over >> the last 30, 35 years. Even among Europeans 125 wasn't viewed as a >> development class for GP, rather it was more of the premier tiddler >> class, the top rung for a very different sort of breed of rider. > I can't usually be bothered to wade through your posts (501 lines on > this one, a new record I think - well done), That one was rather long-winded, I admit, but IL4 deserves almost as much credit as I do... but I thought I'd point > out that you are picking your data to match your theory. > > Sure, 125s haven't been a development tool since the 70s. But, if you > look further back, the following 'great riders' raced 125s: > - Gary Hocking > - Jim Redman > - Mike Hailwood > - Phil Read > - Barry Sheene > > Sure, this was all a long time ago, but then so is the era of a > production line of fast, dirt track schooled riders from the USA. > > And even as late as 1986 and 1990, Cadalora and Capirossi > (respectively) started in 125s. True, but if you look at the whole picture, it's hardly been "the birthplace of champions". Setting the premier class aside, how many 125 champions have gone on to be 250 champion? In the early days there were lots of guys who raced in both classes simultaneously, so you had champions in both classes like Ruffo, Ubbiali, Haas, Provini, but that's not the same thing, and later Read won both championships in '68. So you have to get to Cadalora, the '86 125 champ and 91-92 250 champ, before there's an advancement path indicated on this basis. Criville and Capirossi moved up after that, but that's really it until Rossi a decade ago, and look at the 125 champs after him - Sakata, Alzamora, Locatelli, Poggiali, Vincent. If you look at a list of 125 race winners it's the same thing, you see plenty of promos listed in the last half-dozen years, then they get more spotty, then they disappear almost altogether, with the list dominated by guys like Gresini, Nieto, Bianchi, Pileri. Now look at the 250 race winner list and in those years and the ones that followed you don't see those guys, rather you see Pons, Mang, Ballington, Villa. So I think if you look at the whole picture, it's clear 125 hasn't been a class that shows a historical pattern of rider development for future greats in the upper classes. What it has been is a class dominated by Europeans historically, (with the exception of a couple Japanese imports in the '90s, the champions have all been European going back 42 years), and has in particular been a Spanish-friendly class. You know, where Dorna comes from, and the most GP-mad country in the world. So I think people decided this was to be the case, and today if you win the 125 championship, you're pretty much rewarded with one of the few factory bike rides in 250 (well, if you're Italian or Spanish, anyway). Even Capirossi only 15 years ago had to do one season on an RS250 before he got his factory bike in that class. Not today, though. And then pretty much the same thing if you win the 250 championship.
From: Alexey on 10 Oct 2007 10:43 On Oct 10, 3:06 am, Mark N <menusb...(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: > I do. The Red Bull series is a kiddies development exercise, but it's > hardly GP racing. Spec racing may be close and exciting, but it > ultimately leaves one flat, unfulfilled. In the end it always ends up a > contrivance. All that, just to say, "I don't like it."
From: Alexey on 10 Oct 2007 10:52
On Oct 10, 3:06 am, Mark N <menusb...(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: > They do, they have SSport, which is also a support class in WSB. If > you're talking about GP only, I doubt it matters. The AMA doesn't allow > anyone to compete until they're 16, so you're talking about someone > showing their stuff at age 17 or 18 (assuming it takes time to get up to > speed). So are European 125 teams going to hire someone like that? I > seriously have my doubts, just as European WSS teams have never hired > American riders. And 125 is a European monopoly from a team standpoint, > if not from a riders standpoint (and that by the thinnest of margins). > Racing 125s in the US isn't going to suddenly open up GP to Americans,or > Australians, or anyone outside of Europe, and that's mostly southern Europe. 600's are not lightweight. They're middleweight. And to get something out of racing them, you really can't be younger than around 15. 125's are not a European monopoly. Open any issue of RRW and look at their young racers' profiles. Look at what the kids between 10 and 15 are racing. They're mostly in USGRPU on 125's or are on SV650's. Around 15 is when they start trying 600's. That's totally reasonable and if we had a better path of progression for such riders into small teams, it would undoubtedly improve their chances of getting into GP's. But that's not the only issue. Difference in tracks is another problem. Over-here, our tracks are largely slower, narrow, and bumpy, particularly if you're not on the West Coast. I've raced on both coasts in lightweight as well as middleweight classes and I can tell you that racing something like a 600 at Loudon makes you feel claustrophobic. It's not at all the same kind of racing one can experience on a smooth and fast track. Until that's addressed, our top riders will not be such good candidates for an international series that only spends a fraction of its season on tracks similar to what we have here. And it's not going to get better for them, because all the new facilities being built in Asia and the Middle East are "first rate", meaning they're fast, wide, and smooth. |