One way to resolve the perceived "midget problem"
in [Racing]
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From: Alexey on 10 Oct 2007 11:00 On Oct 10, 3:06 am, Mark N <menusb...(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: > Alexey wrote: > > Whatever the formula, I do agree that a healthy mix of 2- and 4- > > strokes would breathe new life into it. > > Not following you there - are you saying the 250 replacement class > should include both 2-strokes and 4-strokes? Maybe transitionally, but > not permanently, and not if allowing for that effects the nature of the > replacement class. MotoGP did that for one year, and that resulted in > the perceived need to reduce displacement this year. Probably necessary > there, but I don't think it would be in the support classes. I think if it's possible to make it work, that would be ideal. The problem is you can't just go by laptimes. When I practiced on a 600 in sessions with motard bikes mixed in, it was often very difficult to overtake them on the brakes. They forced you to ride in a way that was different than how you'd ride in a more homogeneous field in an actual race. 250 2-strokes and ~600 4-strokes would likely excel at different parts of the track. And advantage would be difficult to predict as they go from track to track. On the surface, it may sound like a great show, but it can very easily degenerate into initial grid position being a huge deciding factor and then a game of certain bikes holding other bikes up through certain sections and walking away from them as soon as they got to "their" section. This wouldn't be interesting to watch. But if it's possible to make them match up enough in characteristics, it would indeed be good.
From: Alexey on 10 Oct 2007 11:08 On Oct 10, 3:06 am, Mark N <menusb...(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: > No, I think I just see it without blinders on. The Euros in MotoGP are > smaller because they came up through the filter of 125 and 250, not > because those people are generally smaller (although they might be to > some degree). But once there, they have an effect on the equipment - > Honda's "more compact riders for the compact bikes of the future", or > was it the other way around? And on the mentality of it all - people > think 125s are God's gift to rider development today, but is that really > the product of anything beyond GP EuroMed bias and favoritism and > propaganda? Why did Elias and Pedrosa and Lorenzo come to MotoGP from > 125 and 250, while Xaus came through WSS and WSB? You don't think size > had something to do with it? > > American racers come up racing street stuff, so there's nothing that > filters out size nearly to the extent 125s do. Our best guys are that > because of talent and desire, not because of small size. So should that > disqualify them? The Aussies and Brits are mostly in the same boat. > > The Japanese presence in world racing is almost entirely controlled by > their factories - how many Japanese riders head out into the world on > their own like the Aussies do? It almost seems like a big deal when one > switches to an Italian factory, like Harada and Haga did, after being > out there. So why did they stop exporting? Who knows, maybe it was > embarrassment over ten years of abysmal performances. > > It's not all that complicated, but if you don't buy into it or even > understand it at this point, you probably never will... Mark, last year Hayden won. This year, it's Stoner. You're complaining about European domination of the series through size. You think it should all be fair and politics not interfere with how riders get hired? Please. It will never happen. It's never been that way to begin with. Last I checked, it takes money and dedication from your parents to get a kid into racing early on. So that means all the kids in big cities are cut off. All the kids that aren't in solid middle-class families are cut off. What do you expect? It's not chess. It's not basketball. This sport takes significant resources. You'll never see "the best" meeting "the best". You'll only see "the best of the lucky". Saying they shouldn't be too small to allow other people into the game is not really gonna make it any more fair by ballasting small riders with heavier machines will not work. You'd have to have a choice of small machines and big ones. But then you're getting into the situation I described about mixing bikes with similar laptimes but different strengths and weaknesses on the same lap. Might not be good watching. So the answer I think is to have different career paths for riders of different stature.
From: sturd on 10 Oct 2007 12:14 Alexey notes: > I think if it's possible to make it work, that would be ideal. The > problem is you can't just go by laptimes. When I practiced on a 600 > in sessions with motard bikes mixed in, it was often very difficult to > overtake them on the brakes. They forced you to ride in a way that > was different than how you'd ride in a more homogeneous field in an > actual race. I listened to an extended 'conversation' between race control and a group of racers, half roadrace bikes, half motard bikes, at the AHRMA roadrace at Mid-O. The conversation was quite heated and revolved around the difference in riding styles between the supposedly equally matched machines. I thought one of the roadracer types was gonna punch somebody. Especially at the esses after the back straight, some of the motard guys were using their foot, spinning up the back, and launching off the hill. Very fast and very disconcerting if you were over on your knee and somebody squared up under you barely leaned over. Go fast. Take chances. Mike S.
From: Mark N on 11 Oct 2007 03:02 Alexey wrote: > On Oct 10, 3:06 am, Mark N <menusb...(a)NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote: >> I do. The Red Bull series is a kiddies development exercise, but it's >> hardly GP racing. Spec racing may be close and exciting, but it >> ultimately leaves one flat, unfulfilled. In the end it always ends up a >> contrivance. > All that, just to say, "I don't like it." All what? No, I don't much like spec racing, and big-time racing is uniformly not spec racing. Not F1, not MotoGP, not WSB, not CART, not IRL, not NASCAR. When I think of spec racing I think of something like IROC, and there was little of interest there. Yes, spec racing might work for some sort of development series, in part because the monopoly factory pays for the whole thing, but, then again, I really don't much like the idea of a top professional series having a developmental class for kids anyway. And as a replacement for 125? That would be very disappointing, to say the least.
From: Mark N on 11 Oct 2007 03:23
Alexey wrote: > Mark N wrote: >> Alexey wrote: >>> A 15 or 16 year old could easily fit that physical criterion of being >>> small and fit. To me, that's the point of having 125's or whatever >>> they might get replaced with in the context of GP's. It makes for a >>> good stepping stone into the series for young talent coming from all >>> over the world, provided there are similar machines being raced all >>> over the world. If we go to 450 4-stroke singles, that may very well >>> take off in places, where 125 racing is stagnant or dying now, such as >>> the US. As to the question of cost, a used 125 RS or TZ is on par >>> with cost with a used 250 4-stroke dirtbike. What we need here is >>> more tracks and more accessible parts (4-strokes would certainly fit >>> the bill). >>>> If you worship at the knee of Alberto Puig, it is... >>> I don't worship anyone. If you disagree with my point without giving >>> a reason why, that's fine. >> Okay, I'll tell you why. If you look at the historical picture, 125s >> hardly have a legacy of being a development tool for great riders. I >> don't think the AMA has ever had a 125 class, yet probably more SB and >> GP world champions have come from the US than anywhere, at least over >> the last 30, 35 years. Even among Europeans 125 wasn't viewed as a >> development class for GP, rather it was more of the premier tiddler >> class, the top rung for a very different sort of breed of rider. Then >> things changed shortly after Dorna took over commercial rights to the >> series in the early '90s. At the same time that the series seemed to be >> hugely focused on getting EuroMed and Japanese riders into 500, driven >> largely by commercial interests, Dorna also decided to make 125 a >> development class, first establishing a maximum number of seasons riders >> could compete there, and now having an age limit instead. At the same >> time we saw Criville and Capirossi move from 125 championships to 250 >> and on to 500, and when Criville won the 500 championship in 1999, he >> became only the second 125 champion to go on to win in 500 (Read, the >> '68 125 champ, was the first). Two years later Rossi became the third, >> and also the first 250 champion to go on to win in 500 since Read, who >> also won the 250 championship, in '71. >> >> So was there something about the 125 and 250 route that best prepared >> riders for 500? I seriously doubt it, rather that's where the European >> riders (and later Japanese) were dominating, and that route gave them a >> big track experience advantage. In many cases they moved up on the same >> teams they raced on in the lower classes, by the '90s the non-factory >> teams were leasing near-factory bikes, and most of those teams had moved >> up from the lower classes. To my view this wasn't about superior >> training, it was about "re-Europeanizing" GP, after 20 years of American >> and Australian champions who came into 500 from outside the series. It >> doesn't take any brilliance to figure out why the business end of GP >> would want to see this, and the timing was much more than coincidental. >> >> So Puig comes along and institutionalizes all this, developing his >> "underground railroad" through 125 and 250, all paid for by Telefonica, >> and starts his training academy using 125s, and that all this was >> centered in Spain, the home of Dorna, the center of the old tiddler >> class, also the new center of GP popularity, is not coincidental. So now >> he has kids on GP tracks as young as 13, can claim at least some >> responsibility for many of the new breed, and is now viewed as the pied >> piper of GP mentorship (and the Svengali of midgetry, btw). In the >> process he has built a huge power base, but also continues to >> Europeanize GP in the process, and that was the real desire of Dorna. >> >> Now, instead of watching outsiders dominate their premier championship >> and their own boys fail miserably, Dorna can pull the strings and >> effectively have now put a near-monopoly stamp on the top championship >> in the world. And everyone seems to buy into it, you have to ride a 125 >> as a teenager or you'll never develop the skills to be MotoGP world >> champion. But that's only really true from a systemic standpoint, it >> probably has very little to do with actual skill development found on a >> 125. I think a top kid could ride 125s in this country for years, but >> he'd never get anywhere unless someone lets him in the door in the GP >> power structure. And they probably won't do that just because he's got >> talent, they will only do that if it supports other desires, if it >> enhances their control and income. > I don't understand what your point is. Puig is training kids on > 125's. Some of them go on to have careers in the series. Okay. What > about any of this makes it unfair? My point is that Puig is the figurehead for 125 racing as a rider development program, and I don't accept that this is the best way to develop MotoGP riders, nor do I think it works for the best long-range interest of the series. Part of what you said was this: "A 15 or 16 year old could easily fit that physical criterion of being small and fit... It makes for a good stepping stone into the series for young talent coming from all over the world, provided there are similar machines being raced all over the world." What you seem to be promoting is the development of tiny riders on tiny bikes, starting when they are very young. I don't think that operates in the overall interest of racing, I think racing is better off with bikes that don't put a significant segment of the riders out there at a physical disadvantage, meaning they are just too big to succeed on them. I absolutely believe that's what 125s do, and that's a big part of why the rider pool in 250 and MotoGP has shrunk so much in recent years. And that's happened not because the riders coming out of that are simply better, but rather because the economic forces of GP want the riders who come out of that, because they are of nationalities that correspond to the largest segment of their fan base. And now MotoGP bikes have evolved to be more friendly to them (including Dorna's displacement reduction), allow them to take full advantage of their smaller size even in that class, which means all this could become institutionalized. It isn't about unfairness, it's about the series going in a direction I just don't want to see, and that I don't think will be good for its future. |