and these guys run nuclear power stations....
in [UK Motorcycles]
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From: M J Carley on 8 Dec 2009 09:32 In the referenced article, Jim <null(a)0.0.0.0> writes: >M J Carley wrote: >> In the referenced article, Andy Bonwick <nospam(a)bonwick.me.uk> writes: >>>On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:17:08 GMT, ensmjc(a)bath.ac.uk (M J Carley) wrote: >> >>>>The problem is making them work safely at a *known* cost. >> >>> You're quite a funny bloke when you want to be. >> >> It's a serious statement: the problem at the moment is that nobody >> really knows what it costs to build a nuclear power station. > >I'm not sure that you're correct. So why do they get the costs wrong? The Channel Tunnel Rail Link was built on-time and on-budget. Why is the civil nuclear industry unable to make as good an estimate of time and cost as the rest of civil engineering? >If we applied this thinking to all decisions nothing would ever get done >- we'd spend all our time trying to estimate the impact over the rest of >history. I meant that nobody knows how much it costs to *build* the power station; nobody cares what disposal and storage costs are because governments pick up the tab on that. >And it's quite disingenuous to attach this thinking to nuclear power >when we quite happily build wind turbines or hydro schemes with >little idea of the eventual return on expenditure or environmental >impact. After fifty-odd years, we should have an idea of the cost of building a power station---we don't. We *do* have a good estimate of what it costs, and how long it takes, to put up a wind turbine. -- Si deve tornare alle basi: Marx ed i Clash. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/
From: J�r�my on 8 Dec 2009 09:42 ensmjc(a)bath.ac.uk (M J Carley) wrote in news:KuBuJq.AFH.B.birch(a)bath.ac.uk: > Has anyone ever built a reactor on-time, on budget? Enrico Fermi. Although I wouldn't have liked to be there. -- Jeremy R1200RT
From: 'Hog on 8 Dec 2009 09:47 M J Carley wrote: > So why do they get the costs wrong? The Channel Tunnel Rail Link was > built on-time and on-budget. Why is the civil nuclear industry unable > to make as good an estimate of time and cost as the rest of civil > engineering? I thought the Tunnel and associated rail links went hugely over time and budget and have struggled to survive as a result? -- 'Hog '06 ST4-S '96 Bastard12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400 '81 R65 Outfit
From: Leszek Karlik on 8 Dec 2009 09:53 On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:32:37 +0100, M J Carley <ensmjc(a)bath.ac.uk> wrote: [...] >> I'm not sure that you're correct. > So why do they get the costs wrong? The Channel Tunnel Rail Link was > built on-time and on-budget. And Polish highways are notoriously late and over budget. :-) > Why is the civil nuclear industry unable to make as good an estimateof > time and cost as the rest of civil engineering? Do you claim that _all_ civil engineering projects except nuclear engineering are always on time and within budget? Some civil engineering projects are on time and within budget, but then again, so are some nuclear power plants. [...] > I meant that nobody knows how much it costs to *build* the power > station; This is patently false. Nobody can be sure how much it costs to build _some_ power stations. Just like with every large scale engineering projects. [...] > After fifty-odd years, we should have an idea of the cost of building > a power station---we don't. We *do* have a good estimate of what it > costs, and how long it takes, to put up a wind turbine. In case of wind turbines what we don't know is what the power is going to cost in the long run. What will be the influence of giant wind turbine farms on weather patterns? Paving the earth with wind turbines with an output comparable to nuke plants could have some repercussions, and a change in weather patterns could drive the cost of power upwards by a significant amount. BTW, do you have some sources that show that wind turbines are never over budget and late? :-) Because it seems a bit suspicious, claiming that one kind of civil engineering projects is immune to problems with scheduling and budgeting. Quick googling shows one project for a wind turbine that ended up costing 1 million USD, while the budgeted cost was 600 thousand USD. Well, it's only 65% over budget or so, so you're quite right, it's almost like it was built within budget. Not. :-)) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/12/04/2762742.htm) -- Leszek 'Leslie' Karlik NTV 650
From: Leszek Karlik on 8 Dec 2009 10:04
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:47:31 +0100, 'Hog <sm911SPAM(a)hotmailchips.co.uk> wrote: [...] >> So why do they get the costs wrong? The Channel Tunnel Rail Link was >> built on-time and on-budget. Why is the civil nuclear industry unable >> to make as good an estimate of time and cost as the rest of civil >> engineering? > > I thought the Tunnel and associated rail links went hugely over time and > budget Only 80% over budget or so, according to the wikipedia. So, almost not like nuclear power plants. ;-) -- Leszek 'Leslie' Karlik NTV 650 |