Why is it?
in [UK Motorcycles]
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From: turby on 29 Apr 2010 05:05 On Apr 29, 1:45 am, Mark Olson <ols...(a)tiny.invalid> wrote: > turby wrote: > > Speeding up the production line can't be a valid explanation. If that > > were so, it would take _fewer_ tools and parts to assemble the bike. > > Now you're getting to it. > > There are some schoolboy-level engineering mistakes in the electrics > of the 2nd Gen FJR that don't exist in the 1st Gen. It's obviously > not deliberately done to make it harder for the owner to service, or > quicker and cheaper to build, it's pretty clearly an inexperienced > engineer or team of engineers being responsible for parts of the > wiring loom design. _Now_ I'm getting to it? My 1st post in this thread: "It seems as if Honda put a team of newbie engineers on the ST13 with no supervision."
From: turby on 29 Apr 2010 05:30 On Apr 29, 1:07 am, Ace <b.rog...(a)ifrance.com> wrote: > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:46:50 +0100, totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk > > (The Older Gentleman) wrote: > >I just tend to get irritated when people kick off with this sort of > >thing, because it's usually followed by a demand to return to > >kickstarters and points ignition "So I can fix it myself", and > >referances to dealers as "$tealer$hips" and similar. > > Oh lordie. Not seen that particular abberation, but it would certainly > paint a good picture of the poster. Not me. My shin is still sore from the old days. I just want to see improvement, not regression. (FWIW, TOG's comment about $$ was a reference to a certain reeky idiot.) > >And, of course, fettling the oily bits only needs to be done once in a > >blue moon rather than every other weekend. > > Not just the oily bits. The fact is that with modern bikes and cars > you can pretty much get away with almost no user intervention between > dealer services at all. Chain adjustment and lubing is really about > the only thing I ever did on any of the (new) bikes I've had since > about 1990. > > Car-wise, well, the R36 has just had its first service, at 37000km, > and all[1] I've had to do is refill the screen wash and once to top up > the oil, as directed by the warning light on the dash. > > The fact is that the same modern innovations that make user-servicing > seem more difficult are exactly those that also make it largely > unneccessary. > > Although I do miss having a SOB to tinker with. I think I got more fun > out of messing with the 400/4 than I ever did riding it. > > [1] OK, so I change the summer/winter wheels over myself twice a year, > but that's not exactly the same thing. Sure, but I never did tinker much with my bikes, anyway. The owner tasks are still the same - change the oil & filter, light bulbs, and pull the wheels for tire changes. All those tasks are much harder on the new bike. (I almost forgot how difficult it is to add air to the rear tire now. What a screwup that was.) And checking valves is now far more difficult. But this isn't a universal complaint. Changing a tire on a BMW is much easier, and you never have to check valves on Harleys.
From: Ace on 29 Apr 2010 05:38 On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT), turby <keensurf(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >On Apr 29, 1:07�am, Ace <b.rog...(a)ifrance.com> wrote: >> The fact is that the same modern innovations that make user-servicing >> seem more difficult are exactly those that also make it largely >> unneccessary. >Sure, but I never did tinker much with my bikes, anyway. The owner >tasks are still the same - change the oil & filter, light bulbs, and >pull the wheels for tire changes. All those tasks are much harder on >the new bike. I'm pretty sure that's not typical, though. And although as I said I haven't tended to do these things on my own bikes for a couple of decades, I'm pretty sure that in general they would not be more difficult. OK, so on any fully-faired bike access to oil filter is going to need some effort, but then that's not related to how modern it is, just whether it's fully-faired or not. But wheel removal? What's got more difficult about that? (I almost forgot how difficult it is to add air to the >rear tire now. What a screwup that was.) And checking valves is now >far more difficult. But this isn't a universal complaint. Changing a >tire on a BMW is much easier, and you never have to check valves on >Harleys.
From: Mark Olson on 29 Apr 2010 05:44 turby wrote: > On Apr 29, 1:45 am, Mark Olson <ols...(a)tiny.invalid> wrote: >> turby wrote: >>> Speeding up the production line can't be a valid explanation. If that >>> were so, it would take _fewer_ tools and parts to assemble the bike. >> Now you're getting to it. >> >> There are some schoolboy-level engineering mistakes in the electrics >> of the 2nd Gen FJR that don't exist in the 1st Gen. It's obviously >> not deliberately done to make it harder for the owner to service, or >> quicker and cheaper to build, it's pretty clearly an inexperienced >> engineer or team of engineers being responsible for parts of the >> wiring loom design. > > _Now_ I'm getting to it? My 1st post in this thread: > "It seems as if Honda put a team of newbie engineers on the ST13 with > no supervision." Perhaps I should have said, "getting BACK to it". I acknowledge you did say that, but you were a bit off track with the comment that Honda had designed with the intent of increasing dealer revenues or something along those lines... let me go back , yep: "I think it's about dealer service. Honda wants you to take the machine to a factory service rep for all maintenance. Then they can charge you an arm and a leg to do the slightest work." It appears TOG and I were both taking your comment seriously when it was (hopefully) said in jest. I've always noted a distinct difference between Kawasaki and Honda. Hondas have always been harder to work on, due to an over-emphasis on making things look "pretty". Kawasaki just seem to do things in a more simple and direct way, and to my way of thinking, form follows function. As it happens I'm about to swap engines on my new-to-me EX500, so I am definitely appreciating Mr. Kawasaki's way of thinking at the moment. Generally bullet-proof engines, but evidently not nearly idiot-resistant enough.
From: turby on 29 Apr 2010 10:32
On Apr 29, 2:38 am, Ace <b.rog...(a)ifrance.com> wrote: > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT), turby <keens...(a)hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >On Apr 29, 1:07 am, Ace <b.rog...(a)ifrance.com> wrote: > >> The fact is that the same modern innovations that make user-servicing > >> seem more difficult are exactly those that also make it largely > >> unneccessary. > >Sure, but I never did tinker much with my bikes, anyway. The owner > >tasks are still the same - change the oil & filter, light bulbs, and > >pull the wheels for tire changes. All those tasks are much harder on > >the new bike. > > I'm pretty sure that's not typical, though. And although as I said I > haven't tended to do these things on my own bikes for a couple of > decades, I'm pretty sure that in general they would not be more > difficult. OK, so on any fully-faired bike access to oil filter is > going to need some effort, but then that's not related to how modern > it is, just whether it's fully-faired or not. But wheel removal? > What's got more difficult about that? I'm not even sure how typical it is for Honda. It seems they treat their fully faired bikes like cars, but I dunno 'bout the naked bikes. It might be a matter of attitude within design departments. My beef is really about one machine that was supposed to be an upgrade for the other. The ST1100 was an excellent design that only needed a few tweaks, but for every improvement, they took a couple of steps back. To get the rear wheel off on the 13 (vs the 11,) you now have to remove the muffler, which requires 3 different wrenches. |