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From: Mark Olson on 3 Jul 2006 23:10
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> <jefralston(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151891407.688126.29290(a)a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> FB,
>> Thanks for the kind response. As it turns out, the rough running was
>> from a torn vacuum line. The gas draining was from a stuck float valve,
>> probably crud in the gas. The float chamber has an overflow stem that
>> drains out the same line as the drain valve, so in actuality, it is the
>> same drain line. Thanks for pointing out my lack of understanding.
>> There's lots of things I don't understand, but your lack of friends is
>> not one of them.
>>
>
> Factory service manuals are way more informative for the basic stuff and
> and way less insulting for the basic stuff than what your going to find here
> in
> this group.

Sometimes the factory manual goes into great detail and sometimes
it doesn't. For example, Honda has a manual called the Common Service
Manual that covers common tasks that a trained mechanic is supposed to
know, which the individual manual for a particular bike may not cover
in detail, or make more than a passing mention of.

If you are not an experienced mechanic, this is why it is worthwhile to
buy a Haynes or Clymer manual rather than, or in addition to the factory
manual, or perhaps plunk down the cash and buy the Honda Common Service
Manual. In some cases however, specifically, my factory manual for the
Kawasaki KZ750E2 goes into great detail on the theory of operation of
the carburetors and the charging system, to a depth and level of detail
that aftermarket manuals usually don't attain.

> You will find that in any of the technical/repair groups, from the
> automotive
> to anything else, that people don't have much patience for the basic RTFM
> questions.

That is quite true- what gets my dander up is someone asking a question
on the group that a manual will answer, precisely and in detail, when the
poster is doing a complete engine rebuild, but refuses to spend $25 on a
manual, instead choosing to ask a laundry list of questions that show a
very poor grasp of the scope of the job ahead.

Usenet isn't a substitute for a $25 manual that contains the
> exact
> specific information for your bike. Where Usenet works well is assistance
> with
> problems where the manual falls short.

Agreed-- but you need a good BS detector to separate the wheat from the
chaff.

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 '81 CM400T
OMF #7
From: Ted Mittelstaedt on 4 Jul 2006 01:17

"Mark Olson" <olsonm(a)tiny.net> wrote in message
news:12ajn0nein1q911(a)corp.supernews.com...
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > <jefralston(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1151891407.688126.29290(a)a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> FB,
> >> Thanks for the kind response. As it turns out, the rough running was
> >> from a torn vacuum line. The gas draining was from a stuck float valve,
> >> probably crud in the gas. The float chamber has an overflow stem that
> >> drains out the same line as the drain valve, so in actuality, it is the
> >> same drain line. Thanks for pointing out my lack of understanding.
> >> There's lots of things I don't understand, but your lack of friends is
> >> not one of them.
> >>
> >
> > Factory service manuals are way more informative for the basic stuff and
> > and way less insulting for the basic stuff than what your going to find
here
> > in
> > this group.
>
> Sometimes the factory manual goes into great detail and sometimes
> it doesn't. For example, Honda has a manual called the Common Service
> Manual that covers common tasks that a trained mechanic is supposed to
> know, which the individual manual for a particular bike may not cover
> in detail, or make more than a passing mention of.
>

Yes, I have a copy of that. It's mainly applicable to the 1990's
and later bikes. The FSM's for the earlier Hondas are a lot larger and
more detailed I think.

> If you are not an experienced mechanic, this is why it is worthwhile to
> buy a Haynes or Clymer manual rather than, or in addition to the factory
> manual, or perhaps plunk down the cash and buy the Honda Common Service
> Manual. In some cases however, specifically, my factory manual for the
> Kawasaki KZ750E2 goes into great detail on the theory of operation of
> the carburetors and the charging system, to a depth and level of detail
> that aftermarket manuals usually don't attain.
>
> > You will find that in any of the technical/repair groups, from the
> > automotive
> > to anything else, that people don't have much patience for the basic
RTFM
> > questions.
>
> That is quite true- what gets my dander up is someone asking a question
> on the group that a manual will answer, precisely and in detail, when the
> poster is doing a complete engine rebuild, but refuses to spend $25 on a
> manual, instead choosing to ask a laundry list of questions that show a
> very poor grasp of the scope of the job ahead.
>

I follow the Chrysler automotive newsgroups and we've had one person
very recently ask how to rebuild the 41TE automatic transmission in his
vehicle because he didn't want to buy the FSM. This is a
computer-controlled
transmission. Chrysler has a completely separate manual specifically for
that transmission alone, that is as thick as the FSM! People are amazing
sometimes.

Ted


From: The Older Gentleman on 4 Jul 2006 02:14
Mark Olson <olsonm(a)tiny.net> wrote:

> That is quite true- what gets my dander up is someone asking a question
> on the group that a manual will answer, precisely and in detail, when the
> poster is doing a complete engine rebuild, but refuses to spend $25 on a
> manual, instead choosing to ask a laundry list of questions that show a
> very poor grasp of the scope of the job ahead.

Agree absolutely.

And ther usually have a very poor appreciation of their own abilities.
"Well, I've torn down a car engine before...."

Any fool can tear down an engine. Not many can reverse the procedure.

Interesting to read the comments on factory manuals - browsing Ebay last
night, and there was an auction fgor a genuine factory manual for a
Z650. Buy It Now for ?20. I didn't hesitate.


--
Trophy 1200 750SS CB400F CD250 Morini 500 Sport Z650
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
From: Mark Olson on 4 Jul 2006 09:11
The Older Gentleman wrote:

> Interesting to read the comments on factory manuals - browsing Ebay last
> night, and there was an auction fgor a genuine factory manual for a
> Z650. Buy It Now for ?20. I didn't hesitate.

I've still got my genuine Kawasaki KZ650 and KZ750 workshop manuals...
even though I doubt I'll ever buy another KZ650 or KZ750, I'm keeping
the manuals for them, because they have some very good information in
them. Plus they're so well illustrated, they're a joy to look at.

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 '81 CM400T
OMF #7
From: FB on 4 Jul 2006 11:42

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> Factory service manuals are way more informative for the basic stuff and
> and way less insulting for the basic stuff than what your going to find here
> in this group.

Who needs this endless discussion? This thread should have been a done
deal with only two posts.

What is it with you and your need to rave on and on and on about
problems that have already been solved?

After all, you're the guy who's afraid to dive into a simple damper rod
fork and "get 'er done".

Jeff Ralston didn't understand the plumbing associated with his
carburetor, so I explained the typical arrangement. Jeff solved his
mechanical problem almost immediately, then indulged himself by trying
to get back at me with an insult because he was somehow offended by the
firm language of my explanation.

Then you started in with a rant about the importance of factory service
manuals. I doubt very seriously if any factory service manual would
have covered the function of every single emissions control, vent, or
carburetor drain hose.

If a home mechanic doesn't have a basic understanding of how something
works and the function of the various parts of a system, a very
complete, but maddeningly vague shop manual written by the Japanese and
translated into "Engrish" won't be much help at all.

There is NO substitute for experience, a mechanic has to get his hands
dirty and actually spend time troubleshooting problems.

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