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From: Champ on 5 Mar 2010 06:52 On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:33:56 +0000, Charlie <nospam(a)all.ta> wrote: >On 05/03/2010 09:17, M J Carley wrote: > >> In the referenced article, Charlie<nospam(a)all.ta> writes: > >> Pits had already come out before a ballot could have been called. > >That in no way obviated the requirement to call a ballot. He would have >won it, and that would have strenghtened his hand immeasurably. He was >stupid and arrogant enough not to play by the rules (however partial you >may consider those rules to have been) and thus was on the political >back-foot from the start. So, I stand by my claim that it was >principally Scargill's intransigence that concluded with the closure of >virtually every pit in the country, and the inevitable destruction of >the industry. This assertion implies that, had Scargill behaved differently, the pits would have stayed open. Which I think is clearly wrong. I've no brief for Scargill, and think he was the architect of his own downfall, but history surely shows that he was right, and the tories *were* going to effectively close the industy down. -- Champ We declare that the splendour of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. ZX10R | Hayabusa | GPz750turbo neal at champ dot org dot uk
From: 'Hog on 5 Mar 2010 06:52 Ace wrote: > On Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:07:13 -0700, vulgarandmischevious > <vulgarandmischevious(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Charlie <nospam(a)all.ta> wrote: >> >>> The miners' strike was ghastly, of course, but was provoked by >>> Scargill's swivel-eyed intransigence. >> >> It wasn't, you idiot. > > Certainly seemed that way at the time. > > Of course, we all know that he was actually just a pawn in Maggie's > game of squahing the unions, or at least we've been told it so often > it must be true. But she wouldn't have been able to get away with it > if it weren't for twats like Scargill who thought they should be able > to do as they pleased. If the Onions had tried to re-invent themselves on a German model rather than holding onto the past and put constructive people to the fore rather than idealogs, then I think Thatcher could have been treated with and we would all be a lot better off. And look where they are now, pretty much representing the public sector and not a whole lot else. AFAIK I'm the only person in the immediate vicinity here who keeps up membership (Prospect) and it's only for sentimental reasons if I'm realistic. -- Hog
From: M J Carley on 5 Mar 2010 07:16 In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> writes: >We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. -- Si deve tornare alle basi: Marx ed i Clash. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/
From: Charlie on 5 Mar 2010 09:12 On 05/03/2010 11:52, Champ wrote: > On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:33:56 +0000, Charlie<nospam(a)all.ta> wrote: > >> On 05/03/2010 09:17, M J Carley wrote: >> >>> In the referenced article, Charlie<nospam(a)all.ta> writes: >> >>> Pits had already come out before a ballot could have been called. >> >> That in no way obviated the requirement to call a ballot. He would have >> won it, and that would have strenghtened his hand immeasurably. He was >> stupid and arrogant enough not to play by the rules (however partial you >> may consider those rules to have been) and thus was on the political >> back-foot from the start. So, I stand by my claim that it was >> principally Scargill's intransigence that concluded with the closure of >> virtually every pit in the country, and the inevitable destruction of >> the industry. > > This assertion implies that, had Scargill behaved differently, the > pits would have stayed open. Which I think is clearly wrong. I've no > brief for Scargill, and think he was the architect of his own > downfall, but history surely shows that he was right, and the tories > *were* going to effectively close the industy down. I have to disagree. Some pits would have been closed, that's not in doubt. For reasons of strategic resource preservation, there was unlikely to be any covert plan to shut every pit. Still, my point was that if he'd not been so hung up on confrontation (martyrdom?) he would have won a ballot under the terms of the Act. That would have nailed the Tories very early on, and given him the upper hand in negotiations. His subsequent refusal to compromise ensured bitterness in the industry, and the fact that the pits stayed closed so long made far more of them uneconomic to bring back into production.
From: 'Hog on 5 Mar 2010 09:20
M J Carley wrote: > In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> > writes: > >> We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. > > Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits would have carried on working, but in such a way that the miners union could not hold the country to ransom. -- Hog |