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From: Champ on 5 Mar 2010 09:35 On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:20:06 -0000, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> wrote: >M J Carley wrote: >> In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> >> writes: >> >>> We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. >> >> Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. > >Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits would have >carried on working, but in such a way that the miners union could not hold >the country to ransom. You and Charlie seem to both believe this. I don't know if it's because it supports your world view. I recall Heseltime announcing the mass closures of the pits, quite some time after the strike had been broken and the miners had returned to work. I'm not sure how you lay the closures at the door of the failed strike. -- Champ We declare that the splendour of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. ZX10R | Hayabusa | GPz750turbo neal at champ dot org dot uk
From: Ace on 5 Mar 2010 09:41 On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:35:49 +0000, Champ <news(a)champ.org.uk> wrote: >On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:20:06 -0000, "'Hog" ><sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >>M J Carley wrote: >>> In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> >>> writes: >>> >>>> We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. >>> >>> Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. >> >>Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits would have >>carried on working, but in such a way that the miners union could not hold >>the country to ransom. > >You and Charlie seem to both believe this. I don't know if it's >because it supports your world view. > >I recall Heseltime announcing the mass closures of the pits, quite >some time after the strike had been broken and the miners had returned >to work. I'm not sure how you lay the closures at the door of the >failed strike. Because by then the unions had ceased to function, so there was no organised opposition possible. You have to admit, in the whole history of trades unions, this was the single most successful 'establishment' victory. Remember how much the country loved here for it? Remember how much we'd suffered in the preceeding decade, much of it at the hands of the miner's unions? It was a glorious day for democracy and freedom.
From: 'Hog on 5 Mar 2010 09:55 Ace wrote: > On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:35:49 +0000, Champ <news(a)champ.org.uk> wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:20:06 -0000, "'Hog" >> <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> M J Carley wrote: >>>> In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> >>>> writes: >>>> >>>>> We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. >>>> >>>> Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. >>> >>> Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits >>> would have carried on working, but in such a way that the miners >>> union could not hold the country to ransom. >> >> You and Charlie seem to both believe this. I don't know if it's >> because it supports your world view. >> >> I recall Heseltime announcing the mass closures of the pits, quite >> some time after the strike had been broken and the miners had >> returned to work. I'm not sure how you lay the closures at the door >> of the failed strike. > > Because by then the unions had ceased to function, so there was no > organised opposition possible. > > You have to admit, in the whole history of trades unions, this was the > single most successful 'establishment' victory. Remember how much the > country loved here for it? Remember how much we'd suffered in the > preceeding decade, much of it at the hands of the miner's unions? > > It was a glorious day for democracy and freedom. The unions had become a political weapon of the far left rather than representatives of the employment interests of the working members. So yeah there was a job to be done. Unfortunately all that happened was destruction all round and so industry moved somewhere else. We often hear accusations that industry moves elsewhere "for cheaper labour". That is a very narrow perspective. Look at steel manufacturing, the raw materials are 75% of the cost, electricity, gas and infrastructure make up most of the rest. Labour is a smaller part. Yet steel manufacture has moved elsewhere. -- Hog
From: M J Carley on 5 Mar 2010 09:50 In the referenced article, "'Hog" <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> writes: >Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits >would have carried on working, but in such a way that the miners >union could not hold the country to ransom. So why were pits closed down long after the miners' strike was over and the NUM was broken? -- Si deve tornare alle basi: Marx ed i Clash. Michael Carley: http://people.bath.ac.uk/ensmjc/
From: Charlie on 5 Mar 2010 10:21
On 05/03/2010 14:35, Champ wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:20:06 -0000, "'Hog" > <sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> wrote: > >> M J Carley wrote: >>> In the referenced article, "'Hog"<sm911SPAM(a)CHIPShotmail.co.uk> >>> writes: >>> >>>> We wouldn't be in so much hock to the Ruskies for natural gas. >>> >>> Yes we would: mining would still have been shut down. >> >> Nonsense. Uneconomic pits would have been mothballed. Better pits would have >> carried on working, but in such a way that the miners union could not hold >> the country to ransom. > > You and Charlie seem to both believe this. I don't know if it's > because it supports your world view. Many of the pits were ancient, underinvested and uneconomic. Nobody in their right mind, not EVEN the Tories, would close a profitable, modern and efficient resource. It's like suggesting that we might close the entire North Sea oil production on a stupid point of political principle. You speculate about my world view. I was and am a pragmatist. You'd have been a <scratches head> teenage idealist at the time of the strike, wouldn't you; possibly anti-authoritarian. Perhaps the strike was a romantic concept for you. For me, I preferred the idea of a government (any government) running the country, rather than a rather unintelligent, self-righteous revolutionary demagogue. The truly barking way in which Scargill gave away his massive advantage, by not having that vote, merely proved that he was dangerously stupid. If he had really had his membership's interest as his first concern, rather than his own self-aggrandizement [1], he could have won. We might well have had John Smith as Prime Minister within a couple of years, and wouldn't that have been a good thing for everyone. [1] Remember that, even after the 'defeat', he got himself elected president for life (retaining control until statutory retirement age) in questionable circumstances, and remains its Honorary President even now. |