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From: steve auvache on 15 Sep 2006 08:36
Simon Wilson wrote
>I've got a knackered battery haven't I?

Dunno.


>Battery is 12Ah, the lights
>should draw about 5amps = 2 hours of running or so I would have thought
>even if it's getting nothing from the alternator.

Just as a matter of interest then, how much current is drawn by the
various electrical systems on your bike? Knowing this could be a useful
guide to diagnosing the problem before you start spending money on
replacement bits. It will only take a few minutes to find out as well.



--
steve auvache
i rate dates
From: Champ on 15 Sep 2006 08:50
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:32:07 -0000, Mark Olson <olsonm(a)tiny.invalid>
wrote:

>Simon Wilson <siwilson(a)nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I've got a knackered battery haven't I? Battery is 12Ah, the lights
>> should draw about 5amps = 2 hours of running or so I would have thought
>> even if it's getting nothing from the alternator.
>
>You might well have a knackered battery, but it sounds to me like the
>alternator's not putting out.

A frigid alternator, eh? That's not good. Get it rewound in Essex.
--
Champ

ZX10R
GPz750turbo
From: Simon Wilson on 15 Sep 2006 11:56
Mark Olson wrote:

> Simon Wilson <siwilson(a)nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Damn it wasn't the reg/rec. I have fitted proper one for the bike,
> > and wired it up correctly, removing the permanent 12V feed to the
> > alternator.
> >
> > I still have the same problem, in that the battery flattens in short
> > order if I ride with the lights on. The first symptom that the
> > battery volts are low is that the ABS light starts flashing.
> >
> > I had the battery on charge[1] for a couple of days before I test
> > rode it. Put the headlights on, went about 5 minutes down the road,
> > then stopped at a junction for a couple of minutes to make an
> > adjustment[1]. By the time I was ready to set off, the ABS light
> > was flashing again.
> >
> > I've got a knackered battery haven't I? Battery is 12Ah, the lights
> > should draw about 5amps = 2 hours of running or so I would have
> > thought even if it's getting nothing from the alternator.
>
> You might well have a knackered battery, but it sounds to me like the
> alternator's not putting out.
>
> I'd try 'full fielding'[1] the altenator while under load and
> measuring the battery voltage. If it doesn't show evidence of
> healthy charging the alternator's probably bad.
>
> [1] Apply 12V across the field coil.

This is how the reg/rec was wired when I got the bike - a permanent 12V
supply to the alternator field coil.

I think the basic problem is that the 28A alternator on the older Pans
just isn't up to it. Doesn't put out enough at low revs. Googling
reveals a lot of people having problems and upgrading to the later 40A
alternator. (Possible, but pricy). If I give her some juice then she
does put out, just like the Essex girls. (Allegedly, I have no
experience of such things.) At higher revs I can see the battery
voltage rising, so it is definitely charging. And all works fine if I
don't have the lights on.

I went on a 20 mile ride to get a new battery, went back to bike to
start it - dead. So, new battery is on charge, I'm reasonably confident
it's gonna be ok.

Thanks all for the advice.

--
/Simon
From: Mark Olson on 15 Sep 2006 13:46
Simon Wilson <siwilson(a)nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Olson wrote:
>
> > Simon Wilson <siwilson(a)nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

[> > > Mark Olson wrote:]

> > You might well have a knackered battery, but it sounds to me like the
> > alternator's not putting out.
> >
> > I'd try 'full fielding'[1] the altenator while under load and
> > measuring the battery voltage. If it doesn't show evidence of
> > healthy charging the alternator's probably bad.
> >
> > [1] Apply 12V across the field coil.
>
> This is how the reg/rec was wired when I got the bike - a permanent 12V
> supply to the alternator field coil.

That bit of electridiotry probably killed your battery by boiling it dry.

> I think the basic problem is that the 28A alternator on the older Pans
> just isn't up to it. Doesn't put out enough at low revs. Googling
> reveals a lot of people having problems and upgrading to the later 40A
> alternator. (Possible, but pricy). If I give her some juice then she
> does put out, just like the Essex girls. (Allegedly, I have no
> experience of such things.) At higher revs I can see the battery
> voltage rising, so it is definitely charging. And all works fine if I
> don't have the lights on.

Do you have extra lights beyond what's stock, or an uprated headlight
bulb? Without exception the people who need something better than the
stock alternator are powering significantly more electrical load than the
stock system. Common to the Concours Owners also-- some are resorting
to fitting a ZZR1200 alternator which just barely fits.

> I went on a 20 mile ride to get a new battery, went back to bike to
> start it - dead. So, new battery is on charge, I'm reasonably confident
> it's gonna be ok.

The stock 28A early Pan alternator should power all the factory electrical
loads even at low rpms. If you are running a high wattage headlamp
and/or aux lights, heated gear, etc. then you may well need the heftier
alternator (and other gubbins, IIRC) fitted to the late models.

Beside an ex-battery, you might now have a damaged alternator from the
continuous overcharging.

> Thanks all for the advice.

I just hope it's been of some use.

--
'01 SV650S '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13 '81 CM400T
OMF #7
From: Simon Wilson on 15 Sep 2006 17:04
Mark Olson wrote:

<snip>
>
> That bit of electridiotry probably killed your battery by boiling it
> dry.
>

It's a sealed battery, no sign of it having blown anywhere, and yes,
the way the reg/rec was wired was completely nuts. I managed to track
down the previous owner (he owned the bike from new), and talked to him
briefly about it. He said the work was done by a Honda dealer, and that
it was charging all ok after they did the work. New reg/rec (wired
wrong), new alternator (I assume just the stator), and new battery.
(Reason he sold the bike was he didn't do any work himself, and it was
getting expensive for dealers to do the work. It had a knackered
gearbox when I got it, that was over a grand's worth of work when I
asked at my local dealer. I did it for a hundred.)

> > I think the basic problem is that the 28A alternator on the older
> > Pans just isn't up to it. Doesn't put out enough at low revs.
> > Googling reveals a lot of people having problems and upgrading to
> > the later 40A alternator. (Possible, but pricy). If I give her some
> > juice then she does put out, just like the Essex girls. (Allegedly,
> > I have no experience of such things.) At higher revs I can see the
> > battery voltage rising, so it is definitely charging. And all works
> > fine if I don't have the lights on.
>
> Do you have extra lights beyond what's stock, or an uprated headlight
> bulb? Without exception the people who need something better than the
> stock alternator are powering significantly more electrical load than
> the stock system. Common to the Concours Owners also-- some are
> resorting to fitting a ZZR1200 alternator which just barely fits.

There are no additional electrical items, I will check the headlight
bulb - presumably there is an additional load from all of the ABS/TCS
stuff too tho'.

>
> > I went on a 20 mile ride to get a new battery, went back to bike to
> > start it - dead. So, new battery is on charge, I'm reasonably
> > confident it's gonna be ok.
>
> The stock 28A early Pan alternator should power all the factory
> electrical loads even at low rpms. If you are running a high wattage
> headlamp and/or aux lights, heated gear, etc. then you may well need
> the heftier alternator (and other gubbins, IIRC) fitted to the late
> models.
>

Even at tickover (1000rpm-ish)? If it should charge at tickover then
something is toast. The voltage seems to rise at about 1500 to 2000
rpm, but it was hard to work out what was going on because the battery
was dying so quickly.

> Beside an ex-battery, you might now have a damaged alternator from the
> continuous overcharging.

Yes, that's what I'm worried about. 180 quid for a stator rewind, about
250 for a new one. Plus the huge hassle of getting it in and out.
(tupperware, swinging arm, zorsts aaargh) The winding resistances check
out ok though, with no shorts to anywhere that I can find.

>
> > Thanks all for the advice.
>
> I just hope it's been of some use.

Definitely. Quite a feat for ukrm, no-one's mentioned an angle grinder
yet! Or shite in t'carbs.

--
/Simon
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