The Big Picture
in [Racing]
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From: pablo on 15 Sep 2009 23:28 On Sep 15, 1:08 pm, Mark N <menusb...(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > But the basic physics hasn't changed. When you boil it down, given the > same level of development, an 800 with change direction more quickly > and a 990 will have more torque and peak power. And the way to get > them around the track most quickly will be somewhat different. i think that view is outdated. Today's 1000cc are as compact and light as the 600cc, that is what modern materials and engineering have led to. It used to be different, it no longer is with modern materials. I have long decried the death of the genuine middleweight machine - but that was based on an era where 1000cc machine were 500lbs plus behemoths with high centers of gravity. They have evolved towards very compact 400lbs packages with chassis that flex just as the engineers intend. So no, i don't buy your very basic premise. And even $11k production machines prove it wrong. That is why a machine as capable as the Suzuki 750, which used to be a brilliant middle step, has become an obsolete concept in production machines. Modern 1000cc are lighter, nimbler and far more powerful. > And I think the fallacy in your theorem is this: The selection of > displacement, minimum weight, etc. in the rules is arbitrary or > largely so, so the move from 990s to 800s was arbitrary and has > nothing to do with evolving the sport to a higher level. ... of course it is arbitrary. as soon as someone decides on something it is an arbitrary decision, i can't remember it out out to popular vote and can't remember claiming so. but at the time it seemed the right decision to make the sport safer, and perhaps more egalitarian. and in some ways it is. i for one would have not have wanted to wait until someone gets killed for the sport to make reforms. it's been the case in the past too often that riders have to die for new safety regulation to take effect. > ... the general opinion since > then has been that these bikes are actually less safe ... I don't think that's the general opinion at all. It's yours. And I agree the 800s are less safe because they are faster now. But 1000cc prototypes would be even unsafer. And they'd weight the same, and corner just as fast. There is no reason why they would corner any slower. > What is highly evolved are the machines themselves, especially the > elctronics (which also allow for a dumbing down of the human element), shame then that hayden isn't dumb enough, eh? oh come on, the transparent agenda detracts from your valid points. i do agree with a LOT of what you say, you'd be surprised, as far as the entertainment and spectacle goes. i just find the conspiracy against the naturally superior speedway bred US racer laughable when you start to get going, as you regularly do when you write more than 100 words. it is a very complex problem. if you wrere in charge of Dorna and had to balance business interests and sports popularity you'd find yourself wondering yourself, as evidenced by... >> .... we want > > prototypes and the most sublime engineering and the highest possile > > pace, and yet we want the racing to be very close and entertaining. > > Agreed. Bingo, we agree. what's so hard about that? i want to see more riders from more places and closer racing. i do *NOT* want to see spanish and italian guys winning - have watched racing since the 80s and i have cheered for the americans and australians and in fact a brit is actually the guy i cheered for the most back in the day. i could not care less if the next world champion is from nepal. i want fun racing. and *SAFE* racing. i don't want the sport to ignore riders' safety concerns, ever. > ... It seems the issue of the day mostly revolves around > electronics, just as it has in F1 prior to this. The problem is that > it is a worthwhile pursuit from a production streetbike standpoint, so > a legitimate R&D pursuit, and it's almost almost impossible to > regulate. ... agree. agree, agree. so what is the more desirable thing - a series with *one* spec bike, every inch and screw identical to the other? or a total unlimited protoype, ie "if you want to strap your behind to a rocket and kill yourself be our guest" series? the slide rule between the two is complex...
From: Mark N on 16 Sep 2009 00:43 Julian Bond wrote: > Mark N >> And the claim about factory >> involvement seems even more dubious, for instance I would be shocked >> if in Japan they run WSS rules and there is no factory involvement at >> all. The old AMA is probably at the end of the bell curve, the OEMs >> had more to do with the winning 600s than in most places and the >> privateers probably have had less resources upon which to build more >> heavily-modified motors. > > This is a persistent theme. That there are limited US tuning shops > capable of building WSS level 600 motors. Or that they can't do so at a > price that privateers can afford. Really? I mean. Really? I think money is more the issue, there isn't much non-industry sponsorship because bike racing isn't very big here, and the industry sponsorship, while relatively substantial, isn't sufficient to cover everyone. If the factories and top supported teams run a high-mod class, then it makes it very tough to compete, and one could also run a SS-spec bike in lots of places, lower-profile series that might actually pay more in terms of purse, and then there's contingencies. Plus SSport got more TV exposure than FX, again likely because the factories ran there more than in FX. So in the end it just made more sense to run SSport than FX, and we saw it in the grid sizes. What would have made FX the bigger class would have been the factories all migrating there, which in turn would have upped the TV exposure, etc. But that didn't happen. A GP2-based DSB class won't happen under DMG's "leadership", because they're not interested in a Japanese-dominated class, even if the factories show limited involvement because it's not their streetbikes on the track, and it therefore would be a very team-based class. No, DMG would only even consider it if someone found a way to shove an 1125cc Buell motor into one of those chassis...
From: Mark N on 16 Sep 2009 01:05 pablo wrote: > Mark N wrote: >> pablo wrote: >>> it's like saying one would like fewer ethiopians and kenyans >>> dominating the long run events. >> <snip> >>> and they aren't easy, so in the end it's the sponsors' and paying >>> public's money that speaks. >> A direct contradition there, it seems - first you imply that there is >> somehow an innate, absolute superiority in the 125/250-bred EurroMed >> midget (and one assumes you mean other than size), and then you imply >> is actually driven by the ultimate costomer base. Me, I'd lean pretty >> heavily toward the latter... > > i never implied the former. ethiopians and kenyans are not superior, > they are socially conditioned, as is the sport in italy and spain. > miost of the world's top soccer players are of latin origin. no > genetic "superiority" there. it's momentary social factors that can > swing back and forth within just a few years. Ah, not really. The northeast Africans from the high plains dominate the distance events largely because they are physically conditioned, they live at high altitude in the thin air, and they have to some degree adapted to living relatively primitively in that sort of open country, much like some of the animals native to that area - covering ground quickly was critical to survival there. (Jeez, that sounds racist!). It's no coincidence that the Africans really made their name in the middle-to-long distance (non-marathon) events at the Mexico City Olympics, where they didn't have to adjust to the high altitude like almost everyone else. The social conditioning only took place after that, once the basic cat was out of the bag. As for the EuroMeds in MotoGP, there definitely is a popularity of sport aspect to that, it's a huge factor. But focusing on the Spaniards, at the highest level of GP they have been suspiciously unsuccessful given their opportunities over the last 20 years or so. And the other aspect of this is the size thing, which has changed undeniably. If you look at the earlier 500 Spaniards - Pons, Garriga, Criville, Puig, Checa, Gibernau - and compare them to today's breed - Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Elias, and now Bautista and Barbera - we're seeing a drop of 20, 25 or 30 pounds per man on average, a massive reduction in size for what were smaller guys to start with. This has nothing to do with "social conditioning".
From: Julian Bond on 16 Sep 2009 03:19 pablo <pablo(a)simplyhombre.net> Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:28:23 >That is why a machine as capable >as the Suzuki 750, which used to be a brilliant middle step, has >become an obsolete concept in production machines. Modern 1000cc are >lighter, nimbler and far more powerful. Careful there, or you'll start stepping on the toes of GSXR750 owners (hint. I am one.). "All the worst aspects of a 600 and a 1000 in one convenient package". I do miss the Aprilia RS250 and further back, things like Ducati singles and Moto Morinis. Even the Yamaha SD200. But the days when a properly ridden Ducati 250 could walk all over a Honda CB750 are long gone. It's pointless chasing corner speed on the road with a lightweight when a heavyweight can corner just as fast. Then you look at modern roads and modern traffic and wonder "What is a GSXR1000 for?" Maybe slow is the new fast. -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat More Y2K Action Urged
From: Julian Bond on 16 Sep 2009 03:30
Mark N <menusbaumNYETSPAM(a)earthlink.net> Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:43:12 >I think money is more the issue, there isn't much non-industry >sponsorship because bike racing isn't very big here, and the industry >sponsorship, while relatively substantial, isn't sufficient to cover >everyone. OK. So when you say resources, you mean money. It's always the money, right? except when it's DMG. >Plus SSport got more TV exposure than FX, again likely because the >factories ran there more than in FX. DMG + SPEEDTV = declining viewers + smaller gates = no non-industry sponsorship = Factory dominance on identikit bikes = irrelevance. There you go. Summed up in one easy formula. So the whole MotoGP circus will stay European with the occasional Spies, Edwards or Hayden. Better get used to it then. -- Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433 Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat More Y2K Action Urged |