How to save Harley Davidison
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From: tomorrow on 13 Jul 2010 14:28 On Jul 13, 11:57 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On 13 July, 15:48, "tomor...(a)erols.com" > > > > > > <tomorrowaterolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Jul 13, 10:39 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> > > wrote: > > > > On 13 July, 13:33, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > > > > > Yep. Because they, like the American consumer electronics industry, > > > > thought they ruled the world and found out that they didn't. And they > > > > _still_ have refused to diversify their product line. > > > > I think this is a key factor. "It's been good enough since 1908, so > > > it's still good enough" is understandable arrogance, but arrogance > > > nonetheless, especially in today's world where the pace of change is > > > so much faster. > > > > BMW realised it had to diversify its range. Triumph realised it before > > > BMW which (I believe) may have given BMW a bit of a wake-up call. > > > Remember Triumph's stillborn Hayabusa-beater that just missed > > > production? > > > > And then there's Ducati... > > > > *Sigh* > > > > Much as I love Ducati, I think they've got to move the same way. More > > > entry-level bikes. I think the new Multistrada is a good styart - it's > > > the first Duke that I've seriously considered buying since I bought my > > > 750SS in 1997. I probably will buy one, actually. Ducati so *nearly* > > > fell into the same hole as HD has. > > > Ducati would certainly like to haved the market position, sales > > history, and brand recognition that Harley has. In fact, they have > > been trying strenuously for at least the last ten years to emulate > > Harley in many ways. > > > Just look at their Monster ads for an example! > > I think you're forgetting the strength of Ducati in European markets, > and especially their home market in Italy. In short, you;re taking a > very US-centric view. Markets exist outside North America, you know, > and Ducati outsells HD in them. Yes, I am aware of that. I am also aware of Harley-Davidson's total worldwide sales vs those of Ducati, and Harley's profit ration, roi, and stock price over the past 29 years compared to that of Ducati. As far as a U.S. - centric view of Ducati, I have been buying and owning and racing and riding and restoring Ducatis since 1986. I vividly recall the Cagiva buy-out, the TPG rescue, the Italian government rescue, etc, etc, and knew people who had to travel to Europe to get parts for their 1970's and 1980's model Ducatis, so yes, I do have a U.S.-centric view of Ducati. I also know that Harley makes more on sales of Harley-branded merchandise than Ducati makes on all their motorcycles combined, and I regularly visit my favorite Ducati shiop and see them emulating Harley's shops wrt their clothing and brand-labeled merchandise. It's quite entertaining, and it's indisputable that that is what they are doing. And, it's not stupid or demeaning - it's smart. > As for brand recognition, Ducati, only a few years ago, was voted the > world's top brand by... I forget who. Ducati's image is *incredibly* > strong: there really is no other motorcycle builder who is so > instantly identified with pure sporting motorcycles, except possibly > MV. Just like Harley is instantly identifed with cruising/touring > bikes Which simply illustrates that successful motorcycle companies do NOT have to make lawn mowers, generators, cars, and airplanes in addition to motorcycles. > Finally, if you think Ducati is trying to emulate Harley, you're > living in a dream world :-) Oh, but they are. They would love to hve Harley's world-wide sales, profits, and logo income. And they are doing everything they can to get there. And it's working. I meet people every month who know nothing about motorcycles at all, buying and riding Ducati motorcycles and Ducati helmets and Ducati jackets and Ducati gloves, simply because they saw a Ducati in some movie or some GQ-type magazine, and decided they are "cool." Just like the guy who knows nothing about bikes, but buys a Harley because that's the brand name that he has heard the most about and thinks it is "cool."
From: Vito on 13 Jul 2010 14:31 J. Clarke wrote: >> But Porsche never belonged to a tennis-racquet company. Back when I >> was in high school all my friends bowled, so I got dragged to the >> bowling alley regularly, where the "AMF" logo was prominently >> displayed at the end of every lane. AMF's major profit maker was >> those pin setters--Harley was a sideline. In 1981 Harley managed to >> escape from AMF, but the damage had been done. You're young. H-D, like most companies, depended on hand craftmanship. That went away, replaced by automation. The Japs had been in the same boat but the war destroyed their craft-based production facilities and we helped them build new automated facilities. Lacking the labor force to build bikes the old way, and without the capital to modernize, H-D was doomed ... just like Triumph, BSA, BMW, Ducati and all. But a group of AMF exec's who loved Harleys maneuvered AMF into buying H-D before it want under, allowing H-D to use AMF's credit and expertese to modernize. During that time they built many faulty bikes, both because the craftsmen who knew how to build good bikes with the old equipment, and because they had to push production to keep AMF happy. The only reason Ducati didn't go was a group of enthusiests saved them too, and the only reason BMW still makes bikes is that bike performance sells cars. I'm not sure who owned who in the Porsche deal. Maybe VW owned both.
From: The Older Gentleman on 13 Jul 2010 14:37 Vito <vito(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > The only reason Ducati didn't go was a group of enthusiests saved them too, > and the only reason BMW still makes bikes is that bike performance sells > cars. No, this isn't true, quite. It is true that BMW considered giving up bike manufacture in the past, but continued because of the reflected sparkle it gave the cars, but these days the business is very much a profit centre in its own right. -- BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes! Try Googling before asking a damn silly question. chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
From: Vito on 13 Jul 2010 14:40 TOG(a)Toil wrote: > On 13 July, 16:25, "Vito" <v...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> J. Clarke wrote: >>>> On 7/12/2010 11:32 PM, don (Calgary) wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:39:47 -0700, sean_q_<nos...(a)no.spam> wrote: >> >>>>>> Bail-out or not? Other factors aside, the answer depends a lot >>>>>> on your views on government intervention in a "free" market. >> >>>>> I am the last one to condone governments messing with the free >>>>> market, but it wasn't a free market. The Japanese had already >>>>> screwed it up. They had used similar techniques in the past to >>>>> dominate the consumer electronic product business. >> >>>> What techniques, making a better and more technologically advanced >>>> product? >> >> No, by government subsidizing of products that didn't sell > > I am pretty certain you are wrong here. H-D proved it in court. > What happened in the early > 1980s was *not* foreseen nor wanted by Japan's government.And it > wasn't government subsidies. I agree it wasn't wanted of forseen but it happened. And yes it was government subsidy. > > When products do not sell, you cut the price and clear stocks. Sure, and you stop making them. But that meant layoffs and unemployment benefits. So, rather than pay those benefits, the gummymint subsidized the lines that didn't sell. I wanted to buy a then-new Goldwing Interstate but my dealer was out of them. So he offered me last years model - brand new - for $1000 bucks less with Vetter luggage. Hard for H-D to compete with that. > > Something very odd happened in the Jap bike industry in the early > 1980s, and I'm still waiting to see if anyone else here knows what it > was. Overproduction ....
From: The Older Gentleman on 13 Jul 2010 14:47
Vito <vito(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > > I am pretty certain you are wrong here. > > H-D proved it in court. OK > > > What happened in the early > > 1980s was *not* foreseen nor wanted by Japan's government.And it > > wasn't government subsidies. > > I agree it wasn't wanted of forseen but it happened. And yes it was > government subsidy. Proof? I find it hard to believe. > > > > When products do not sell, you cut the price and clear stocks. > > Sure, and you stop making them. But that meant layoffs and unemployment > benefits. So, rather than pay those benefits, the gummymint subsidized the > lines that didn't sell. I wanted to buy a then-new Goldwing Interstate but > my dealer was out of them. So he offered me last years model - brand new - > for $1000 bucks less with Vetter luggage. Hard for H-D to compete with > that. > > > > Something very odd happened in the Jap bike industry in the early > > 1980s, and I'm still waiting to see if anyone else here knows what it > > was. > > Overproduction .... Yes, but *why*???? -- BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes! Try Googling before asking a damn silly question. chateau dot murray at idnet dot com |