How to save Harley Davidison
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From: TOG on 14 Jul 2010 08:17 On 14 July, 12:37, "Vito" <v...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > Beav wrote: > >> I'm interested to know which bikes the Japanese produced were in > >> competition with Harley? Until they produced the Harely clones I > >> can't think of one. > > Honda Gold Wings for one. Big road bikes were H-Ds bread & butter back > then. That's an *interesting* suggestion. On the face of it, they are chalk and cheese, but the Wing was the first real transcontinental Honda. Yeah, you can cross continents on a C50, but the Wing really was the first Jap bike intended to do that.... Hmmm... but a Harley competitor? <fx: tosses idea from hand to hand> I'd prefer to mark the Wing as the bike which showed, absolutely, how motorcycle engines were going to develop in terms of car-like reliability and features, but yes, I'd agree with you on this one.
From: Chuck Rhode on 14 Jul 2010 09:27 On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:25:11 -0700, TOG(a)Toil wrote: > It's a tough old world out there. Companies have to face it. The best thing we can do for the American Worker is export unionism, which paradoxically has not gained a foothold in overseas in Socialist economies. -- ... Be Seeing You, ... Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA ... Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX ... 71° — Wind SSW 3 mph
From: TOG on 14 Jul 2010 09:51 On 14 July, 14:27, Chuck Rhode <CRh...(a)LacusVeris.com> wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:25:11 -0700, TOG(a)Toil wrote: > > It's a tough old world out there. Companies have to face it. > > The best thing we can do for the American Worker is export unionism, > which paradoxically has not gained a foothold in overseas in Socialist > economies. > <VBG> Funny, that....
From: Bob Myers on 14 Jul 2010 12:12 Beav wrote: > I'm interested to know which bikes the Japanese produced were in > competition with Harley? Until they produced the Harely clones I > can't think of one. But you're not thinking in the right context. Any product that is sold in a given market which can take a share of that market from you is a competitor. At the time, Japanese standards, etc., were seen as a possible alternative for buyers that might otherwise have purchased a product from H-D. Bob M.
From: tomorrow on 14 Jul 2010 12:39
On Jul 13, 3:31 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > On 7/13/2010 2:18 PM, tomor...(a)erols.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 13, 11:03 am, "J. Clarke"<jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: > >> On 7/13/2010 10:25 AM, Beav wrote: > > >>> "tomor...(a)erols.com"<tomorrowaterolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>news:e01615b6-bff3-4b96-912f-95e75f447b3b(a)y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com.... > >>>> On Jul 12, 10:39 pm, sean_q_<nos...(a)no.spam> wrote: > >>>>> tomor...(a)erols.com wrote: > >>>>>> What I want to know is how someone can claim that a nation's legal > >>>>>> response to an illegal trade practice by the company of another > >>>>>> nation, a legal response that did not put ANY money into Harley- > >>>>>> Davidson's coffers... > > >>>>> Were there any govt loans or any other kind of direct aid such as > >>>>> subsidies or tax relief? I don't know for sure about this, > >>>>> but at least one blogger mentions loans. > > >>>> There were no subsidies or loans. > > >>>>>> ...can be described as a "bail-out" of Harley-Davidson. > > >>>>>> It most assuredly was NOT a bail-out. > > >>>>> Bail-out or not? Other factors aside, the answer depends a lot > >>>>> on your views on government intervention in a "free" market. > > >>>> I'll echo Calgary's point that with the Japanese companies receiving > >>>> coordinated Japanese government assitance, and using profits earned > >>>> (legitimately) in other markets and from other products to subsidize > >>>> those products which competed with Harley-Davidson in the marketplace, > >>>> the market was hardly "free" prior to the impositon of the tariff. > > >>> I'm interested to know which bikes the Japanese produced were in > >>> competition with Harley? Until they produced the Harely clones I can't > >>> think of one. > > >> And I wanna know what other products Honda was making. As for "profits > >> earned in other markets" why didn't Harley figure out how to use its > >> profits in the US to play in those "other markets". > > >> Harley came into existence in the US in 1903. 45 years later Honda came > >> into existence. Between 1903 and now Harley has grown to about a 4 > >> billion dollar a year company. Between 1948 and now Honda has grown to > >> a 100 billion dollar a year company. Seems to me that Harley's been > >> sitting on its butt for most of that time while Honda tried a bunch of > >> different stuff and gone with what worked and dumped what didn't and all > >> the while worked for a reputation for quality. > > >> You can say what you want to about "coordinated Japanese government > >> assistance" and "using profits earned in other markets" but the fact > >> remains that a company that in 1948 was a loose confederation of bicycle > >> shop owners picking over the rubble for the parts to make scooters had > >> by 1964 become the world's largest motorcycle company. So what was > >> Harley doing in those 16 years and why wasn't Harley able to do it with > >> a 45 year head start? > > > Different companies pursue different business philosophies; not all of > > them want to become huge megacorporations whose original core business > > is merely a sideline for them. > > So between 1948 and 1964, what was Honda making besides motorcycles? I have no idea, nor do I care. > > Different countries produce different corporate cultures, and those > > different cultures result in hugely different corporate practices. > > So you're saying that it is inherent in the Japanese culture that > Japanese companies want to become the largest and most successful > producers in the world of whatever it is that they make, but in the US > it is to be a second-rate niche player? No, you said that. I said nothing of the kind. > You seem to be forgetting that > once Harley-Davidson was the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the > world, with subsidiaries and licensees all over the place including Japan.. I'm not forgetting that. I'm not discussing it, either. > > At no point did I claim that Harley-Davidson was a "better" company > > than Honda (or any other company) nor did I say that people should > > favor their products over the products of Honda, if they prefer Honda > > products. > > Well, that's the thing, by 1964 far more people, the world over, > preferred Honda motorcycles to Harley-Davidson. I'm aware of that. I'm not discussing that, nor do I have any interest in it. > > All I said was that, in my opnion, the temporary tariffs that the U.S. > > government placed on certain imported motorcycles with engines > > displacing over 700cc in response to verified unfair trade practices > > practiced by some U.S. motorcycle importers did not constitute a "bail- > > out" of Harley-Davidson. > > Harley had been begging for those tariffs for more than 30 years when > they finally got them. Cite, please. > So I guess that those "verified unfair trade > practices" were being implemented in 1952 when Honda's major product was > a 50cc clip-on engine to be attached to a bicycle. Why on esrth would you guess somethign like that? > At the time Harley > claimed that it was Triumph that was "dumping". Really? Cite, please. > That's always been > Harley's excuse--they can't compete because the other guys are > "dumping". Really? Other than the 1984 tariff, can you provide something to support that contention? > And we're going to keep hearing Harley whine about it until > some hapless Chinese outfit that doesn't know any better is stupid > enough to buy them out (the Japanese were never quite that dumb). Strangely enough, the Japanese companies have been much harder hit by the current global economic downturn than Harley. And just when was the last time Harley "whined" about the Japanese (or any other) competition? Oh, yeah; it was when they petitioned the government for relief from the PROVEN unfair trade practices that the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers were engaged in 26 years ago. As I said, others may have different opinions. I don't happen to agree with your opinion. |