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From: frag on 7 Oct 2009 03:43 In article <4nu0c59jt8mjt9bqovlaodpjhrpi91coed(a)4ax.com>, news(a)champ.org.uk says... > > You're completely wrong. > > The immobiliser logic is *in* the ECU. The external device is > actually called an 'immobiliser amplifier' - it takes the signal > detected from the chip in the key, er, amplifies it, and sends it to > the ECU. > > The kit ECU doesn't even have the immobiliser/key matching stuff in > it. I don't see a download link for the racing harness (the thread got off topic talking about how to grab pages of PDFs for dozens of posts) so I can't help you anymore without that. Can you point me to the normal harness your bike has and the racing harness? -- frag
From: Champ on 7 Oct 2009 04:46 On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 08:43:47 +0100, frag <news4(a)ukrm.co.uk> wrote: Krusty and I had a gone at it last night, and while we improved our understanding, we really didn't figure out what was going on. >Can you point me to the normal harness your bike has and the racing harness? I'm getting a colleague at work to hack just the diagram pages out of the full PDFs - I'll post them up as soon as I've got them. -- Champ We declare that the splendor of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. ZX10R | Hayabusa | GPz750turbo neal at champ dot org dot uk
From: Champ on 7 Oct 2009 05:52 On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:46:30 +0100, Champ <news(a)champ.org.uk> wrote: >>Can you point me to the normal harness your bike has and the racing harness? >I'm getting a colleague at work to hack just the diagram pages out of >the full PDFs - I'll post them up as soon as I've got them. OK,once more into the breach... The road diagrams (US, without immob, and 'other' with immob) are at: http://www.champ.org.uk/bikes/ZX10R-RoadWireDiag.pdf The race kit diagram is at: http://www.champ.org.uk/bikes/ZX10R-RaceWireDiag.pdf There's also a pic, from the road manual, showing the subset diagram for the ignition circuitry (which includes fuel pump, etc). This diagram also showws the immob stuff as dotted lines, where it applies http://www.champ.org.uk/bikes/ZX10RWireDiag-ign.xps Thanks in advance... -- Champ We declare that the splendor of the world has been enriched by a new beauty: the beauty of speed. ZX10R | Hayabusa | GPz750turbo neal at champ dot org dot uk
From: antonye on 8 Oct 2009 06:08 Champ wrote: > > The immobiliser logic is *in* the ECU. The external device is > actually called an 'immobiliser amplifier' - it takes the signal > detected from the chip in the key, er, amplifies it, and sends it to > the ECU. > > The kit ECU doesn't even have the immobiliser/key matching stuff in > it. <arrives late to the party> All of which is completely correct. But what I'm wondering is if you're chasing something that isn't even a problem? AFAIAA, if the immobiliser is in the ECU, and you're using a race ECU that doesn't have an immobiliser, then there's nothing that should stop it from working. The system is similar to that used in the Marelli 5.9M ECUs that Ducati use, except they have an extra code in the clocks that needs to match both the key and the ECU. The security comes from if the key doesn't match the clocks and the ECU, then the it immobilises the fuel pump. There is a way round this, by resetting the ECU into a factory "learn" mode which will synch with the clocks/keys when it's next switched on; this is how they come out of the factory. But I digress... Yes, it seems like you have an immobiliser fault, but you should be able to put the race ECU into the loom (as I'd be pretty sure that the looms are essentially identical, except for the missing road kit on the race loom) and it would start. If the race ECU doesn't care about the immobiliser, then it should just start. The immobiliser antenna is just there to read the code from the key and send it to the ECU; it's a dumb piece that just sends a code. If the ECU isn't doing anything with this code then surely it's not needed? It's interesting that the starter turns but it doesn't fire. Does the pump prime? Is petrol flowing? I'd be tempted to step through the fuel system to see if it's flowing. You may just have something stupid like a duff relay on the fuel injectors or even a blown fuse. Looking at the Race wiring diagram, there's no mention of the antenna, so I wouldn't bother plugging it in to your loom if you have it in there as it may be confusing the ECU. It seems it's a dual function connector as it's marked as immobiliser and diagnostics on the road loom. Maybe it's shorting something it shouldn't be in the ECU? Time to get the multimeter out I think? This is one of the reasons we fitted the earlier FI loom to my race bike as it uses the 1.5M ECU that doesn't have the immobiliser (at least it's not enabled in the Ducati version) whereas the later 5.9M ones do, and you need clocks and keys for it. -- Antony
From: antonye on 8 Oct 2009 06:12
antonye wrote: > > Looking at the Race wiring diagram, there's no mention of > the antenna, so I wouldn't bother plugging it in to your > loom if you have it in there as it may be confusing the > ECU. Looking at the pic that Pete put up, I'd say remove both the antenna and the immobiliser amplifier, as both of these components shouldn't be needed with either an unlocked (ie, US) or race ECU. I expect that the immobilizer "amplifier" is stopping the ECU from running over the bike by putting it into a diagnostics mode, hence the dual purpose of the port. By unplugging it and leaving it free it may let it run... -- Antony |