Need thingy for Yamaha
in [UK Motorcycles]
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From: wessie on 3 Jan 2010 09:43 Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:7qbdsrFj7mU1 @mid.individual.net: > On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 17:50:16 +0000, The Older Gentleman escribió: > >> Running out of fuel would not have fritzed the relay. Trust me. Far more >> likely that the fuel pump has gone AWOL, but even so, running out of >> fuel wouldn't do that. >> >> I'd check the pump by running a direct feed to it. > > I'm going to dig out the schematic and attack the relay with my Avometer, > but matey reckons that the relay "pulses" the pump, the pump being a > simple solenoid and diaphragm, and said relay has ceased to "pulse". He > says if he puts power direct to the pump it clicks - same as if using the > relay. Sounds to me like the pump's had it. Could he be right about the > "pulsing" thing? > On my 1988 vintage VFR, a simple solid state relay melted. Root cause was the solenoid based fuel pump. The pump shouldn't click. The solenoid should actuate to suck in a load of fuel which is then dispelled by pressure from a spring. Once the pump is empty a sensor should be triggered to restart the cycle. If the pump is clicking then I agree with you, it is probably shagged and drawing loads of current trying to overcome the impairment. -- wessie at tesco dot net BMW R1150GS
From: Mark Olson on 3 Jan 2010 09:58 wessie wrote: > Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants(a)gmail.com> wrote in news:7qbdsrFj7mU1 > @mid.individual.net: > >> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 17:50:16 +0000, The Older Gentleman escribió: >> >>> Running out of fuel would not have fritzed the relay. Trust me. Far more >>> likely that the fuel pump has gone AWOL, but even so, running out of >>> fuel wouldn't do that. >>> >>> I'd check the pump by running a direct feed to it. >> I'm going to dig out the schematic and attack the relay with my Avometer, >> but matey reckons that the relay "pulses" the pump, the pump being a >> simple solenoid and diaphragm, and said relay has ceased to "pulse". He >> says if he puts power direct to the pump it clicks - same as if using the >> relay. Sounds to me like the pump's had it. Could he be right about the >> "pulsing" thing? >> > > On my 1988 vintage VFR, a simple solid state relay melted. Root cause was > the solenoid based fuel pump. > > The pump shouldn't click. The solenoid should actuate to suck in a load of > fuel which is then dispelled by pressure from a spring. Once the pump is > empty a sensor should be triggered to restart the cycle. > > If the pump is clicking then I agree with you, it is probably shagged and > drawing loads of current trying to overcome the impairment. My VF500F has a similar-sounding pump. When it's operating it does indeed sound like clicking[1], not whirring, since it's not a motor as such, but a solenoid with a diaphragm and valves. When the carbs are empty it thrums at a high rate and slows down and eventually stops once they are full. This is without the engine running and with the pump control relay bypassed. My educated guess about the system from briefly looking at the relay assembly is that the relay doesn't pulse the pump, it's either on or off. The pump does its pulsing on its own. [1] more thumping, actually than clicking.
From: steve auvache on 3 Jan 2010 11:01 In article <7qbq12Fj7nU1(a)mid.individual.net>, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants(a)gmail.com> writes > >Hmm. Found the info on testing. Looks like a boggo relay (although the >picture makes it look like a normally closed relay). When I were nought burra lad barely into long keks and learning this stuff we were told that by convention relays and their contacts are shown in the non operated position. However, in a manner long since copied by Microsoft, automotive electronics are A Black Art with spells, enchants and incantations all of their own. >http://www.fzrarchives.com/fzr600/600_manual/ > >But: http://paulc.es/relay.jpg > >The instructions don't tally with the drawing (according to my brain). >They seem to have the meter and the battery the wrong way around. Seeing >as there is some resistance between 2 and 3, I can safely assume that >this is the coil windings? ie; the text is right and the drawing wrong. It is hard to tell from what you have posted, even after cleaning my glasses I cannot make out any fine details like contact numbers and the like from the piccies. It doesn't actually matter which way round you connect your meter if you are simply looking for the presence or absence of a voltage, it will just move the wrong way, the clue is in the fact that it moves. Resistance readings are something else entirely though, especially where diodes are concerned. Supplement RB-RBC seems to offer the best clues. Especially page 55 where it tells you to as a part of the troubleshooting system to connect the pump itself directly to the battery and if it works then something else is broked. If you have three things in a system and cannot test one of them then, by the Sherlock Holmes Method, if you can discount two by proving them working then only one thing is left. So.... if you are getting volts to the right relay input when you turn the bike on and the pump can be made to work on its own it would be reasonable to suspect the relay even if you cannot directly prove its functionality. -- steve auvache
From: Paul Carmichael on 3 Jan 2010 12:10 On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:01:24 +0000, steve auvache escribió: > If you have three things in a system and cannot test one of them then, > by the Sherlock Holmes Method, if you can discount two by proving them > working then only one thing is left. So.... if you are getting volts to > the right relay input when you turn the bike on and the pump can be made > to work on its own it would be reasonable to suspect the relay even if > you cannot directly prove its functionality. I think the key things here are a: the pump "clicks" when voltage is applied directly, and b: the relay is nothing more than just that. Conclusion: the bloke doesn't know what he's on about and the pump is buggered. That's what I shall tell him in the pub tonight as I hand him the diagrams and his relay and wash my hands of the affair. I'm afraid these Spaniards do suffer from a tendency to know everything. Erm, present company and all that.. Thanks for all the input all. I've learned some stuff. -- Paul. CBR1100XX SuperBlackbird (Buen mueble de patio), Orbea Dakar BOTAFOT #4 BOTAFOF #30 MRO #24 OMF #15 UKRMMA #30 http://paulcarmichael.org/ (content pending)
From: steve auvache on 3 Jan 2010 13:18
In article <7qc1cjFj7mU2(a)mid.individual.net>, Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants(a)gmail.com> writes >On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:01:24 +0000, steve auvache escribi�: > >> If you have three things in a system and cannot test one of them then, >> by the Sherlock Holmes Method, if you can discount two by proving them >> working then only one thing is left. So.... if you are getting volts to >> the right relay input when you turn the bike on and the pump can be made >> to work on its own it would be reasonable to suspect the relay even if >> you cannot directly prove its functionality. > >I think the key things here are a: the pump "clicks" when voltage is >applied directly, and b: the relay is nothing more than just that. > >Conclusion: the bloke doesn't know what he's on about and the pump is >buggered. Probably and most likely but not necessarily. Sadly the type of pump is not clear from the diagrams and this really is the key. If it is a solenoid pump driven by the relay then depending on the pump itself there are two ways of driving it. One way the relay should tick on and off and ackle the pump. There is not enough complexity in the diagrams to suggest this is the case, nor is this my experience for the normal way solenoid type pumps work. The second (and most commonly found) way is for the pump to contain an internal, normally closed, contact attached such that the pump will open this contact at the end of the throw thus interrupting current flow in the circuit. Fair wear and tear/accumulation of dirt on the contact faces being a common cause of failure and can sometimes be diagnosed with the help from a Glasgow screwdriver. Simply connecting and disconnecting the power to the pump and seeing what happens may give a clue. Otoh if it is a roundy roundy impeller type pump then just connecting it should make it go but sadly the type of pump is not clear from the diagrams. Speaking of diagrams, there is nothing in them to suggest a pulsing relay, all they seem to show is a single coil and contact, suggesting that any pulsing is being done elsewhere, probably in the pump. That said though automotive electrical diagrams tend to be of a Black Box nature in that they often only give a general clue as to what the internals are rather than any detail. Assuming the relay can be made to click once AND provide power to the pump, I think then you could eliminate this from the list of suspect duff bits. I suggest also some acceleration testing of the pump whilst connected directly to volts. Sometimes this can persuade a dodgy pump into life for a few seconds[1], just long enough for you to point the finger of blame, or not. Of course all the above is mainly conjecture based upon exercising limited experience at a distance. A firm and confident "It is this type of pump," would help enormously. > That's what I shall tell him in the pub tonight as I hand him >the diagrams and his relay and wash my hands of the affair. Sensible move. [1] There is a tale of me, a pre rubber bumper MGB roadster, a dodgy solenoid fuel pump, a tack hammer, a roundabout and someone rushing to my aid thinking I had died when after stopping and failing to move off I was seen to apparently fall out of the door and under the rear wheel when in fact I was just giving the pump a well practised assist to restart it but it is too long to relate here. -- steve auvache |