A Reeky clubhouse IRL
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From: .p.jm. on 25 Nov 2009 09:48 On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:10:46 -0800, Sean_Q_ <no.spam(a)no.spam> wrote: >Let's all chip in and buy one of these 50 fix'r'uppers in Detroit >for a Reeky HQ. (I really like the castle). >http://www.robotnine.com/2009/10/abandoned-houses-of-detroit.html > >SQ Hey ! 'Move-in condition' ! -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/ Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm
From: Tim on 25 Nov 2009 10:03 On Nov 25, 8:11 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans will continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all.
From: TOG on 25 Nov 2009 10:07 On 25 Nov, 15:03, Tim <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Nov 25, 8:11 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? > > Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they > sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans will > continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all. *Shrug*. If an industry can't produce well-made competitive products, it deserves what it gets. American cars are singularly unsuccessful in most export markets (cars made by their foreign subsidiaries are a different matter, mind) and Japanese cars, um, aren't. I don't know much about US cars, actually, so educate me. What marques and models are worth buying, and why? Let's leave aside the gas- guzzling trucks, niche market musclecars (I'd love a modern Mustang or 'Vette) and SUVs and concentrate on mainstream cars.
From: Tim on 25 Nov 2009 10:39 On Nov 25, 10:07 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > On 25 Nov, 15:03, Tim <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > On Nov 25, 8:11 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? > > > Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they > > sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans will > > continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all. > > *Shrug*. If an industry can't produce well-made competitive products, > it deserves what it gets. Agreed. of course, that doesn't apply to American industry in general or the American car industry in particular. > American cars are singularly unsuccessful in > most export markets (cars made by their foreign subsidiaries are a > different matter, mind) and Japanese cars, um, aren't. If you are familiar with the history of the world automotive market, you know that the U.S. has never made any particular effort to export domestic U.S. automotive products to other markets, specifically because it knew that what Americans wanted and needed in an automobile has traditionally been something very different from what Europeans and Australians and Asians wanted and needed in an automobile. And you know, of course, that the U.S automobile giants invested in European and Australian arms (Opel, Holden for GM and Ford Europe and Ford Australia) that were quite successful in competing in their respective markets, while of course not being anywhere near as monolithic as they were in the domestic U.S. market. > I don't know much about US cars, actually, so educate me. What marques > and models are worth buying, and why? Let's leave aside the gas- > guzzling trucks, niche market musclecars (I'd love a modern Mustang or > 'Vette) and SUVs and concentrate on mainstream cars. There's not a domestic marque or model that I wouldn't consider if I were in the market. Hell, well over a decade ago, before it was euthanized, Oldsmobile produced the Aurora and the Intrigue and the Alero, and all were world-class competitive cars that were arguably better in their respective niches than most of the competition, regardless of source. The Intrigue had a 3.5liter dohc V6 over 10 years ago, but that wasn't enough to sway buyers who were already hooked on more expensive Japanese offerings. The current (and soon to be dead) Saturn Aura is another car that many enthusiast magazines graded higher and which cost less than the imported competition, but Saturn is being phased out. The current Chevy Malibu and Ford Fusion are mainstream mid-sized cars that compete against the Accord, Camry, Altima, and Sonata and have finished highly against and in some cases on top of the the comparisons with those import options. No, the problem isn't the product, it's perception, and perceptions are difficult things to change. 23 years ago I bought a 1987 Chevy Beretta GT Coupe, brand new, and people at the time told me "never buy a first year GM product, you'll just finish testing it for them, they're never ready until they've shaken the bugs out of them in the first two or three years of production." I drove the car 74,000 miles before my family grew to the point that we needed a station wagon. In 74,000 miles, I put a set of tires on it, changed the oil and oil filter, and replaced a dripping water pump that I got for $12.99 at the local autoparts store. I replaced that car with a used 1987 Ford Taurus station wagon that hd 58,000 miles on it, and we drove it to the 129,000 mile mark, replaced the battery and also had to put a water pump in it. Sold it for exactly $800 less than we had paid for it, seven years earlier. To this day, people will tell me all about how terrible American cars were in the 1980's and how they'll never buy another American car. And people still tell me "Don't buy an American car in its first year of production, because it will be a lemon." Never mind that many of them have never OWNED an American car. I've never had a lemon in my life, domestic or foreign. I've owned about 40 cars and trucks in my lifetime, almost exactly equally divided between U.S. cars and imports, and I can categorically state that whether the car was a U.S.-built or foreign-built car, there was nothing close to a consensus case for or against either group on the basis of quality. And that includes British (!) and French (!) and German imports as well as Japanese imports, and Japanese and American and German products built in the U.S, along with U.S. products built in Mexico and Canada.
From: Vito on 25 Nov 2009 11:02
"Tim" <tomorrowerolsdotcom(a)yahoo.com> wrote [ If you are familiar with the history of the world automotive market, [ you know that the U.S. has never made any particular effort to export [ domestic U.S. automotive products to other markets, specifically [ because it knew that what Americans wanted and needed in an automobile [ has traditionally been something very different from what Europeans [ and Australians and Asians wanted and needed in an automobile. Yes. Worse yet from a detroit standpoint, Euro and Asian government subsidization made them uncompetative. After WW2, Britian and Japan subsidized exports whilst our farm policies had the opposite effect on food exports that might have closed the gap. Other countries have government health care. Here it is paid by employers and tacked onto the selling price. That's one reason so many "American" cars are assembled in Canada or Mexico. Now the US auto industry, and industry in general, is in about the same shape as the Brit bike industry got into a few decades back even tho the quality of my last real Triumph was quite good. |