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From: Beauregard T. Shagnasty on 25 Nov 2009 11:58 Tim wrote: > "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? > > Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they > sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans > will continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all. My wife drives a Chevy. It was manufactured in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico. -- -bts -Friends don't let friends drive Windows
From: Tim on 25 Nov 2009 12:14 On Nov 25, 11:02 am, "Vito" <v...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > "Tim" <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote > [ If you are familiar with the history of the world automotive market, > [ you know that the U.S. has never made any particular effort to export > [ domestic U.S. automotive products to other markets, specifically > [ because it knew that what Americans wanted and needed in an automobile > [ has traditionally been something very different from what Europeans > [ and Australians and Asians wanted and needed in an automobile. > > Yes. Worse yet from a detroit standpoint, Euro and Asian government > subsidization made them uncompetative. After WW2, Britian and Japan > subsidized exports whilst our farm policies had the opposite effect on food > exports that might have closed the gap. Other countries have government > health care. Here it is paid by employers and tacked onto the selling > price. That's one reason so many "American" cars are assembled in Canada or > Mexico. Now the US auto industry, and industry in general, is in about the > same shape as the Brit bike industry got into a few decades back even tho > the quality of my last real Triumph was quite good. Excellent point. I had a '74 Norton Commando 850 that I completely rebuilt from the ground up with only 6,000 miles on it (it had been disassembled with the intent of being made into a cafe racer when it was but one year old, and thereafter had been stored in boxes until I bought it in '91 or so) and that bike was worn out and ready for a rebuild again, 12,000 miles later. Meanwhile, my buddy Clayton bought a 1978 (Meridan) Triumph Tiger 750 brand new when he graduated from high school and rode that bike well over 100,000 miles before his riding career was ended by an accident in 1993. The difference in build quality between those two bikes was staggering. Likewise, the American people in general can't be bothered to test drive a Malibu against an Accord or Camry, because they've had three good, reliable, Accords in a row. Sure, no doubt. Accords have been good cars since they started making them. Now, they are also heavy, luxurious, big, well made, dead quiet, boring, numb, reliable, and have good resale value. They are everything that Americans used to make fun of Oldsmobiles and Buicks for being. And the Malibu is better in the upscale V6 versions, while being less expensive, and is equal in the four-cylinder version, while being less expensive, and according to everything I've read, it's more FUN to drive than the Accord or the Camry. (Aside: I can remember the 1980's when the American car magazines just eviscerated American cars for having flat, non-ergonomic, "styled" dashboards that ran across the whole width of the cabin and were difficult to read. They complained that American cars should have nice, ergonomic, central binnacles with a readable tach and speedo, flanked by decent oil pressure, ammeter (or voltmeter), water temperature gauges, not idiot lights. And they were right. Well, hot damn, my '87 Beretta's dashboard was even EASIER to read and MORE ergonomic than the dash on my 1983 VW GTI. A couple of years later, when the fourth gen Honda Prelude come out, they replaced the dashboard with a flat thin black luminescent strip that went all the way across the cabin of the car, and featured a bizarre mix of anolog and digital gauges that blinks and sparkled like a Christmas tree. And of course, that was so "futuristic" and "forward thinking" and "innovative" of Honda; never mind that it had every single failing of the old American dashboards that the magazines had complained so bitterly about.) Like I said, perceptions are a difficult thing to change.
From: TOG on 25 Nov 2009 12:28 On 25 Nov, 16:02, "Vito" <v...(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote: > "Tim" <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote > [ If you are familiar with the history of the world automotive market, > [ you know that the U.S. has never made any particular effort to export > [ domestic U.S. automotive products to other markets, specifically > [ because it knew that what Americans wanted and needed in an automobile > [ has traditionally been something very different from what Europeans > [ and Australians and Asians wanted and needed in an automobile. > > Yes. Worse yet from a detroit standpoint, Euro and Asian government > subsidization made them uncompetative. Absolutely, at least as far as European (and British) cars are concenred. Asian? Um, I wouldn't call them uncompetitive. :-/ After WW2, Britian and Japan > subsidized exports whilst our farm policies had the opposite effect on food > exports that might have closed the gap. The European farm subsidies are still a headache. Britain has never forgotten that in two world wars, the closest it came to defeat was by having its food supplies cut off, and Europe generally was on the very edge of famine in 1945-46. For these reasons alone (never mind votes), there's a strong incentive to keep food production in Europe. > Other countries have government > health care. Here it is paid by employers and tacked onto the selling > price. That's one reason so many "American" cars are assembled in Canada or > Mexico. Now the US auto industry, and industry in general, is in about the > same shape as the Brit bike industry got into a few decades back even tho > the quality of my last real Triumph was quite good. Oh, yes, excellent comparison.
From: turby on 25 Nov 2009 12:46 On Nov 25, 7:07 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > ... > I don't know much about US cars, actually, so educate me. What marques > and models are worth buying, and why? Let's leave aside the gas- > guzzling trucks, niche market musclecars (I'd love a modern Mustang or > 'Vette) and SUVs and concentrate on mainstream cars. But since trucks are the biggest sellers, you can't very well exclude them and have a meaningful response. Personally, I have no use for sedans. I almost never need to carry more than 3 people in my truck, but it is far more useful to carry any and all loads bigger than my motorcycle will carry. It always baffled me why foreign manufacturers (other than Toyota) refused to enter the pickup truck market.
From: Jack Hunt on 25 Nov 2009 12:52
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:10:46 -0800, Sean_Q_ <no.spam(a)no.spam> wrote: >Let's all chip in and buy one of these 50 fix'r'uppers in Detroit >for a Reeky HQ. Good luck. We tried to have a Reeky Ride this summer. How many showed up? Four or five? You'll never get 'em to buy a house in Murder Central. -- Jack |