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From: J. Clarke on 25 Nov 2009 12:36 TOG(a)Toil wrote: > On 25 Nov, 15:03, Tim <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> On Nov 25, 8:11 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? >> >> Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they >> sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans will >> continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all. > > *Shrug*. If an industry can't produce well-made competitive products, > it deserves what it gets. American cars are singularly unsuccessful in > most export markets (cars made by their foreign subsidiaries are a > different matter, mind) and Japanese cars, um, aren't. > > I don't know much about US cars, actually, so educate me. What marques > and models are worth buying, and why? Let's leave aside the gas- > guzzling trucks, niche market musclecars (I'd love a modern Mustang or > 'Vette) and SUVs and concentrate on mainstream cars. What's "worth buying" depends on what you're looking for. The SUVs _are_ mainstream--they've replaced the station wagon (what in the UK is known as an "estate" I believe) which was legislated out of existence by fuel economy taxes as the grocery-getter and kid-hauler of choice. Most of the American cars on the market come under the heading of "keep your butt off the road and the rain off your head and get you where you need to go". A Taurus or Malibu does fine if you don't need more hauling capacity than they provide. The thing that has historically been good about all of them is that they have rather rudimentary drive trains and cast-iron pushrod engines that are nearly indestructible and cheap to repair or replace. Big, heavy, slow-turning, inefficient engines that routinely go 250,000 miles before the first overhaul. That's changing with fuel prices going up and the fuel economy tax being tightened, so now we're getting aluminum blocks and multiple overhead cams and the rest from all the US manufacturers. Something that has gotten missed in all the noise is that Ford, GM, and Chrysler have all been making perfectly adequate econoboxes for years, but they aren't as cheap as the Japanese and Korean econoboxes, so people in the market for an econobox go to the Japanese and Koreans.
From: Steve Paul on 25 Nov 2009 13:09 TOG(a)Toil wrote: > On 25 Nov, 15:03, Tim <tomorrowerolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> On Nov 25, 8:11 am, "TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> Is there *any* motor industry left in Detroit? >> >> Nope. Americans sneer at anything "Detroit-produced" the way they >> sneered at anything Japanese in the 1950's and 1960's. Americans will >> continue to sneer until there is no American industry at all. > > *Shrug*. If an industry can't produce well-made competitive products, > it deserves what it gets. American cars are singularly unsuccessful in > most export markets (cars made by their foreign subsidiaries are a > different matter, mind) and Japanese cars, um, aren't. > > I don't know much about US cars, actually, so educate me. What marques > and models are worth buying, and why? Let's leave aside the gas- > guzzling trucks, niche market musclecars (I'd love a modern Mustang or > 'Vette) and SUVs and concentrate on mainstream cars. Overall, I believe Americans design an excellent car, but they nickel and dime the execution for the sake of a buck, only to provide a less than optimal result, which leads to unncessary recalls and/or parts replacements by the customer. My '99 Chevy Malibu w/3100 SFI V6 provokes quite a bit of positive and negative commentary, but suffice it to say I still prefer it over the comparably priced 4 cylinder '99 Camry in performance, and maintenance costs. There's one of each in my family, and the Malibu is less prone to failure, and cheaper to repair, now that both vehicles have over 100,000 miles on the clock. The interior of the Camry is better, where the drivetrain of the Malibu is better. We aso have a 2001 Malibu in the family, and it's a degraded version of the '99 IMO. Apparently Chevrolet was responding to complaints about the stiff ride of the earlier models, and the platform went from being a sport conscious sedan to more luxury minded, like the Camry. If I can't get an Electric car when the '99 Malibu is ready for the bone yard, I'll have no reservations about walking into a Chevy dealer and buying a late model Malibu (if I can afford it). I'm not a huge fan of the direction that outward designs have taken over the last decade, but as far as the platform and drivetrain, I have faith in Chevy. I've had a couple of Fords over the years, including a Mustang. I'm not a fan. The Mustang provokes an emotional response and is fun to drive, but I'd probably wonder what it would be like to be driving a Camaro if I bought another. In the end, if American car manufacturers had carte blanche for procuring and installing components, we'd be getting an excellent car. There's nothing particulary bad about the designs. We just can't afford good (American made) components, and the cost of good (American) labor, where pofit driven shareholder loyalty drives the bottom line. I'm concerned that the inability to produce quality at a low price point, is misrepresenting the ability of American engineers and workers to produce good products. It's simply not true. Management is the problem. Us grunts that do the work, and are closest to the issue of quality, are always pissed off about the business decisions that have to be made, in order to get product out the door, for the sake of a revenue stream held hostage by shareholders and investors who are not committed to the company product, but to their own bottom line. A lot of very good technology has fallen on the floor over the years. We'd be far more advanced technologically, if it were not for business and marketing failure. Engineers love to solve problems, and workers love to build the solutions. My nickel, Steve Paul (Not a socialist, just complaining)
From: Henry on 25 Nov 2009 13:35 Sean_Q_ wrote: > Let's all chip in and buy one of these 50 fix'r'uppers in Detroit > for a Reeky HQ. (I really like the castle). > http://www.robotnine.com/2009/10/abandoned-houses-of-detroit.html > > SQ Unregulated greed based capitalism - gotta love it. Imagine how different things would be if the hundreds of billions of tax payer dollars that are wasted on illegal, immoral terror campaigns in the Middle East were invested here at home, and our government didn't hand out hundreds of billions of our tax dollars to corporate thieves and parasites on Wall Street or give obscene tax breaks to the wealthiest few... -- "The broad mass of a nation will more easily fall victim to a big lie than a small one." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (1933) http://911research.wtc7.net http://www.journalof911studies.com/ http://www.ae911truth.org
From: The Older Gentleman on 25 Nov 2009 13:54 J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote: > Something that has gotten missed in all the noise is that Ford, GM, and > Chrysler have all been making perfectly adequate econoboxes for years, but > they aren't as cheap as the Japanese and Korean econoboxes, so people in the > market for an econobox go to the Japanese and Koreans. Now that's interesting. Over here, the Japanese cars aren't that cheap. Positively expensive, in the case of Honda and (maybe) Subaru. But Korean, yes, good value. And with five year warranties on some. And they've upped their quality game *immensely* in the last few years. -- BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes! Try Googling before asking a damn silly question. chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
From: Vito on 25 Nov 2009 14:48
"TOG(a)Toil" <totallydeadmailbox(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote [ ..... I still hanker for a [ US musclecar simply because while they may be cheap in many respects, [ nobody else on the planet seems to do that particular type of vehicle [ as well as the Yanks. Sadly, we can't build them any more either - not since 1970. |