How to save Harley Davidison
in [Motorcycles]
|
Prev: Proper oil for cruisers
Next: 9-11 was an inside job.
From: The Older Gentleman on 17 Jul 2010 03:56 J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote: > BMW is ten times the size of Harley. In fairness, if one counts the bike division as a stand-alone, it isn't. -- BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes! Try Googling before asking a damn silly question. chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
From: J. Clarke on 17 Jul 2010 08:17 On 7/17/2010 3:56 AM, The Older Gentleman wrote: > J. Clarke<jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote: > >> BMW is ten times the size of Harley. > > In fairness, if one counts the bike division as a stand-alone, it isn't. But the bike division isn't a stand-alone and that's the whole point--the bike division has the resources of all of BMW to call on--the test tracks and the supercomputers and the research labs and the wind tunnels and the bank accounts and the whole nine yards. And if their motorcycle sales falter, management can choose to prop them up with money from the other parts of the business while they develop and implement a corrective strategy. Harley doesn't have that--if V-twin cruisers and touring bikes stop selling Harley's _dead_.
From: J. Clarke on 17 Jul 2010 08:11 On 7/16/2010 8:45 PM, tomorrow(a)erols.com wrote: > On Jul 16, 7:40 pm, "J. Clarke"<jclarke.use...(a)cox.net> wrote: >> On 7/16/2010 2:35 PM, tomor...(a)erols.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 16, 2:18 pm, totallydeadmail...(a)yahoo.co.uk (The Older >>> Gentleman) wrote: >>>> tomor...(a)erols.com<tomorrowaterolsdot...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> HD *is* a small volume producer, really, and yes, BMW, Ducati and >>>>>> Triumph are even smaller. Moto Guzzi smaller still It's impossible to >>>>>> argue otherwise. >> >>>>> How do you define "small volume producer," then? >> >>>>> Anyone who doesn't produce millions of scooters and mopeds? >> >>>> I think anything over half a million units counts as volume in today's >>>> world, but ultimately it's pointless trying to establish a yardstick. >> >>>> Millions of scooters and mopeds certainly count - why shouldn't they? >> >>> Because in general, when motorcycle enthusists think about >>> motorcycles, they don't think about mopeds and scooters. And thus >>> Harley, with 40+% of the current total U.S. streetbike market, >> >> Not even Harley claims 40 percent. > > Doesn't mean it isn't true. Are you claiming it isn't true? Then > which of the sales numbers that I have cited from Harley, BMW, and the > Motorcycle Industry Council (which all agree, btw) is incorrect? Please provide a link to the post, I haven't seen it. >> They claim something like 50 percent >> of the 750 and up market. > > Okay, seems reasonable. >> >>> does >>> not qualify - to most motorcycle enthusiasts - as a "small volume" >>> manufacturer. Neither does BMW >> >> BMW is ten times the size of Harley. > > BMW motorcycles? Or BMW the corporation? We are not talking about > cars here in rec.motorcycles. Or maybe, you are. If so, you are > talking to yourself. BMW is BMW and it's ten times the size of Harley no matter how many motorcycles it sells. >>> or Triumph >> >> Actually Triumph is pretty small. >> >>> or Ducati, >> >> One thinks of Ducati like one thinks of Ferrari, as an adjunct to a race >> team, > > One does. Others most assuredly do not. So if Ducati wasn't winning races right and left how much of a market do you think they would have?
From: J. Clarke on 17 Jul 2010 08:05 On 7/16/2010 5:32 PM, The Older Gentleman wrote: > tomorrow(a)erols.com<tomorrowaterolsdotcom(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I've read over and over again in the automotive press; that Porsche >> (back when they were independent) could not survive making "just" >> sports cars. >> > But Porsche weren't making 'just' sports cars - they were making only > one sports car, 924, 944 and 928 notwithstanding > >> But Ferrari seems to survive (and prosper, and thrive) doing just >> that. No one seems to think that being overly dependent on V8 and V10 >> powered rwd supercars is a bad thing for them! > > Ferrari has produced a lot more models than Porsche. Ferrari has also belonged to FIAT for going on half a century. >> And yet, by the same reasoning that says that Harley *has* to build >> standards and sport tourers and entry level beginner bikes, etc, >> Ferrari will not be "successful" until they start building SUVs and >> sedans and pick-up trucks! > > I take your point. Time will tell, I suppose. And what they do has > worked for a century, but they're still stuck with a single core product > in what is essentially a fashion industry. In any case Ferrari's parent company _does_ make SUVs and sedans. It's important to distinguish between a brand and a company. Ferrari is a FIAT brand, while it's organized as a separate company within FIAT just as Chevrolet is organized as a separate company within General Motors, it's still part of the FIAT pie with money, expertise, components, and staffing flowing both ways. Moto Guzzi is a Piaggio brand. Corvette is a GM brand. Porsche was until recently a company, now it's a Volkswagen brand. Harley is both a brand and a company, however if it gets in financial trouble due to its single product line going out of fashion then it will become vulnerable to becoming a brand of another, larger, more diversified company just as happened to Porsche and Ferrari and Rolls-Royce and Maserati and Lamborghini and Jaguar and Moto Guzzi.
From: The Older Gentleman on 17 Jul 2010 08:36
J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet(a)cox.net> wrote: > It's important to distinguish between a brand and a company. Yes, this is a very good point which hasn't been raised before. >Ferrari is > a FIAT brand, while it's organized as a separate company within FIAT > just as Chevrolet is organized as a separate company within General > Motors, it's still part of the FIAT pie with money, expertise, > components, and staffing flowing both ways. Moto Guzzi is a Piaggio > brand. Corvette is a GM brand. Porsche was until recently a company, > now it's a Volkswagen brand. > Harley is both a brand and a company, Yes. Yes. > however if it gets in financial trouble due to its single product line > going out of fashion then it will become vulnerable to becoming a brand > of another, larger, more diversified company just as happened to Porsche > and Ferrari and Rolls-Royce and Maserati and Lamborghini and Jaguar and > Moto Guzzi. Yes again. -- BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes! Try Googling before asking a damn silly question. chateau dot murray at idnet dot com |